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Drew87

Best Technical Wrestler in the World

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I was watching some of otoguru’s matches, so proficient at everything, the best leg attacks off short offense I have ever seen. 

I would have to say all time it would be one of the Saitiev brothers, but I know nothing about the belaglozovs or fadzaevs of the soviet era.

So, who is the most technical wrestler competing today? 

And who was the best technician ever?

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Sadulaev has to be the best positionally. He almost never gets scored on and seems to always be in the perfect position to score
Dake has gotta be up there.
He may have the most technically sound approach in all the world and really puts a disgusting amount of time into the details....
I don't much like the guy, but I respect where his grind has gotten him.

If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask Frank Rizzo because he knows more than me.

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@Housebuye didn't mean to quote your Saduleav post, my bad... But he's surely up there as well.

It's hard for me to factor in the lighter guys because everyone has such dynamic offense it's hard not to give up points and I have to factor that in as well.
Guess I'm having trouble seperating athleticism and technique

If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask Frank Rizzo because he knows more than me.

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

Dake has gotta be up there.
He may have the most technically sound approach in all the world and really puts a disgusting amount of time into the details....
I don't much like the guy, but I respect where his grind has gotten him.
 

Incredibly, given he's American, I'd say he's one of the best par terre wrestlers in the world at any weight. Dude has seriously freaky hips and grips.

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Depends if you mean someone who has perfect technique on what they do, like Sadulaev, Uguev, Cox, or someone who has a technique for every situation and can score using many moves, like Dake, Chamizo, Khinchegashvilli

All time, I think it’s S. Belaglasov who could score the widest variety of techniques against world level competition with perfect form, but B. Saitiev transcended technique completely a lot of the time. When you’re making stuff up as you go and dominating the highest level, it’s meaningless to even say whether your technique is good or bad anymore.


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15 hours ago, spladle08 said:

@Housebuye didn't mean to quote your Saduleav post, my bad... But he's surely up there as well.

It's hard for me to factor in the lighter guys because everyone has such dynamic offense it's hard not to give up points and I have to factor that in as well.
Guess I'm having trouble seperating athleticism and technique

If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask Frank Rizzo because he knows more than me.
 

Athleticism allows special capabilities not available to everybody. It manifests itself greatly in scrambling for example, when the guys get squirrelly. 

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13 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Incredibly, given he's American, I'd say he's one of the best par terre wrestlers in the world at any weight. Dude has seriously freaky hips and grips.

Dake is a shaved gorilla with great technique. He's way stronger than the guys he's wrestling, and it shows. 

Edited by TobusRex

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9 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Dake is a shaved gorilla with great technique. He's way stronger than the guys he's wrestling, and it shows. 

I have heard multiple college coaches unequivocally state that trying to teach a good chunk of what Dake does or can do is kinda a path to frustration.. because it isn’t because he’s just technical but because he’s also an athletic freak. They weren’t dissing either. Just stating how they saw it

Edited by jp157
My original grammar was garbages

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2 hours ago, jp157 said:

I have heard multiple college coaches unequivocally state that trying to teach a good chunk of what Dake does or can do is kinda a path to frustration.. because it isn’t because he’s just technical but because he’s also an athletic freak. They weren’t dissing either. Just stating how they saw it

They could all get there if they just started doing functional patterns. 

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4 hours ago, jp157 said:

I have heard multiple college coaches unequivocally state that trying to teach a good chunk of what Dake does or can do is kinda a path to frustration.. because it isn’t because he’s just technical but because he’s also an athletic freak. They weren’t dissing either. Just stating how they saw it

He's a frea, no doubt about it. 

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4 hours ago, jp157 said:

I have heard multiple college coaches unequivocally state that trying to teach a good chunk of what Dake does or can do is kinda a path to frustration.. because it isn’t because he’s just technical but because he’s also an athletic freak. They weren’t dissing either. Just stating how they saw it

This right here may be one of the key realizations every good coach must have, teaching moves and a style that work for multiple strength levels.

I’m pretty sure in the past week John Smith and Cael have also been mentioned anecdotally as physical monsters in their weight.  Easy to innovate when you ragdoll guys?  

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1 hour ago, Drew87 said:

This right here may be one of the key realizations every good coach must have, teaching moves and a style that work for multiple strength levels.

I’m pretty sure in the past week John Smith and Cael have also been mentioned anecdotally as physical monsters in their weight.  Easy to innovate when you ragdoll guys?  

My observation is that “innovation” “usually comes from the the super obsessed who approach things differently.. who also have some physical gifts that allow them to develop things that matches that obsession and different approach. 
 

The innovation also usually comes from the “figure it out” attitude that makes wrestling fun. They just decided running a thousand extra stairs wasn’t as effective as developing their approach 

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29 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

John Smith was far from a physical monster. He wasn't ragdolling anyone with brawn. He was not that strong. He had very good flexibility and balance, and his conditioning was always on point, but I wouldn't classify him as a freak in any way.

I've read quotes of people who wrestled with him stating he is way stronger than he looks.

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I've read quotes of people who wrestled with him stating he is way stronger than he looks.

His positioning and technique made him strong as sht, I'm sure, but he was not that physically powerful. Myron Roderick would constantly make fun of how weak he was (I'm sure he exaggerated ab it). My point is you can't really call him a freak in the same way that, say, Dake or JB are called freaks. He was more of a B. Saitiev type of freaky--a technique freak.

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Just now, wrestlingnerd said:

His positioning and technique made him strong as sht, I'm sure, but he was not that physically powerful. Myron Roderick would constantly make fun of how weak he was (I'm sure he exaggerated ab it). My point is you can't really call him a freak in the same way that, say, Dake or JB are called freaks. He was more of a B. Saitiev type of freaky--a technique freak.

Agreed, completely.  I think that was my point I didn't clear very well.  There's physical freak strength.  And there's "a guy put his hands on you and holy ****" strength.  By most accounts Smith was the latter.

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34 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

John Smith was far from a physical monster. He wasn't ragdolling anyone with brawn. He was not that strong. He had very good flexibility and balance, and his conditioning was always on point, but I wouldn't classify him as a freak in any way.

He had very good natural flexibility. The kind of flexibility that some simply don’t have no matter how much yoga they do. Including things that tear ligaments on most but for some their body can move that way. 
 

Ive also heard multiple first hand accounts of how good his hips naturally were even before he got truly great. I think diminishing his physical gifts and only focusing on the technique because he didn’t “look” like an “athlete” is an incomplete picture. 
 

*not saying he wasn’t technical btw

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20 minutes ago, jp157 said:

He had very good natural flexibility. The kind of flexibility that some simply don’t have no matter how much yoga they do. Including things that tear ligaments on most but for some their body can move that way. 
 

Ive also heard multiple first hand accounts of how good his hips naturally were even before he got truly great. I think diminishing his physical gifts and only focusing on the technique because he didn’t “look” like an “athlete” is an incomplete picture. 
 

*not saying he wasn’t technical btw

I wasn't diminishing his physical gifts. Smith and "ragdoll" were used in the same sentence with reference to him as a "physical monster". I simply said he wasn't ragdolling anyone because hew was a monster. He embarassed a lot of people, made them look lead-footed, gassed them, frustrated them, etc.

While it was in his best interest to focus on his technique versus his genetics, Smith claims he was "slow", that he developed what he calls "technique speed" through constant repetition and pattern recognition. 

JB, Dake, Nate Carr, Kyle Snyder... those guys come to mind as physical beasts to me.. 

B. Saitiev, John Smith, Yianni D... freaks in a different way. Just not physical monsters.

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35 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I wasn't diminishing his physical gifts. Smith and "ragdoll" were used in the same sentence with reference to him as a "physical monster". I simply said he wasn't ragdolling anyone because hew was a monster. He embarassed a lot of people, made them look lead-footed, gassed them, frustrated them, etc.

While it was in his best interest to focus on his technique versus his genetics, Smith claims he was "slow", that he developed what he calls "technique speed" through constant repetition and pattern recognition. 

JB, Dake, Nate Carr, Kyle Snyder... those guys come to mind as physical beasts to me.. 

B. Saitiev, John Smith, Yianni D... freaks in a different way. Just not physical monsters.

I understand. I made sure I didn’t say he was naturally quick or fast when mentioning his attributes for that very reason. 

 

I just think people forget that there are more aspects to athleticism and physical gifts beyond strength and power. I also think people focus too much on “strength” as a weight room thing or judge people’s perceived “strength” based off the muscles looking big. Forgetting that in the real world that most of the professions requiring physical strength create builds closer to Satievs than Burroughs most of the time

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19 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I understand. I made sure I didn’t say he was naturally quick or fast when mentioning his attributes for that very reason. 

 

I just think people forget that there are more aspects to athleticism and physical gifts beyond strength and power. I also think people focus too much on “strength” as a weight room thing or judge people’s perceived “strength” based off the muscles looking big. Forgetting that in the real world that most of the professions requiring physical strength create builds closer to Satievs than Burroughs most of the time

Then why did you suggest I was "diminishing his physical gifts"?

I agree strength isn't the only attribute that matters, but it's damn important in wrestling and it is overwhelmingly the attribute that is described by terms like "monster". 

And a related question, not necessarily directed at you: Is it not possible for someone to train very hard and develop exceptional technique to maximize whatever gifts s/he was born with, even if they weren't substantial? Who are some examples? Because if we are going to call all champion wrestlers freaks because the term can be extended to such a degree that any attribute can qualify, then are there any examples of non-freaky world champs? 

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33 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Then why did you suggest I was "diminishing his physical gifts"?

I agree strength isn't the only attribute that matters, but it's damn important in wrestling and it is overwhelmingly the attribute that is described by terms like "monster". 

And a related question, not necessarily directed at you: Is it not possible for someone to train very hard and develop exceptional technique to maximize whatever gifts s/he was born with, even if they weren't substantial? Who are some examples? Because if we are going to call all champion wrestlers freaks because the term can be extended to such a degree that any attribute can qualify, then are there any examples of non-freaky world champs? 

I said I understand when you answered originally. 
 

And I didn’t say all champion level wrestlers were freaks. I was talking about wrestlers who not just maximized their abilities but had a specific attribute something like unnatural flexibility that enabled a unique style. Then I made a point about how when people look at athleticism or natural gifts they overplay some over others. Because they don’t “look” a certain way 

I will say I’ve heard a very high number of high level technical coaches attribute a lot of what Dake and Smith do/did to the unique gifts they have/had supplemented by the good technique. 

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