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Drew87

Best Technical Wrestler in the World

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As freaky as Dake is physically, I think his best attribute is his mind. He has GOAT-level mental strength and dedication. Overcoming all those defeats, especially the close/controversial ones, all the injuries, and then having the stones to still actually believe he would beat JB., showing up as the best version of himself ever, is so impressive. He clearly watched his past performances, saw how much the complaining and poor-me thinking took a toll, and cut all of it out.

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I'm going to go with Chamizo, I think.

The guy is a 65kg guy still.  He is just thicker, and it isn't all muscle/growth.  He just doesn't want to cut.

To me this question is sort of a p4p thing.  To be technically sound, or as perfectly sound as possible, you also need certain physical advantages over your opponents too.

I'm thinking of guys who I think could go up (or have gone up) and would be just as much a contender in the next weight class(es) up, and the list isn't that long.

When thinking of dominance, I think of a list of five guys that could or would win fairly easily going up one weight class(or two), and for different reasons.

Chamizo, Dake, Yazdani, Cox, and Sadulaev.

Dake and Cox are freak athletes and just so damn quick/hard to score on for it.

Yazdani and Sadulaev are physical beasts that BREAK you with that physicality. 

Chamizo is just so damn good.  I don't know or think it would matter what weight class he went he would contend because it is impossible to prepare for him.  You put him at  79 or 86 and he is immediately in that conversation.  Add in that he isn't actually bigger, just chubbier than he was at 65 keggers and I'm sold.  he is the best on the planet as far as technician goes.

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I'm going to go with my favorites.....Sergei Belaglozov and Arsen Fadzaev, who were by the way team mates, meaning competed at the same time on the USSR/CCCP team.  During that time they both became 8 time World and Olympic Champions.  They each had one silver medal as well.  Sergei took Silver in '79 losing in a close match to Tomiyama.  This was in the beginning of his senior level career.  Fadzaev took silver in the very end of his career, and moving up a weight...losing to Kenny Monday.  They had 2 different styles....Belaglazov had tons of weapons in his tool box....Fadzaev great leg attack off of the inside tie....if he couldn't get that, he went to his front headlock to score....both guys very dominant.  Some of my favorited matches to watch are Fadzaev vs. Metzger.

Edited by fadzaev2

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45 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

You put him at  79 or 86 and he is immediately in that conversation.  Add in that he isn't actually bigger, just chubbier than he was at 65 keggers and I'm sold.  he is the best on the planet as far as technician goes.

I'm a Chamizo fan (I don't root for him against Americans, of course). But no way 86, homie. He would be almost a foot shorter than some guys at 86 kg, and I'm only exaggerating a little. He may be more skilled than some of the guys up there, but he would get smoked. A lot of his game is being able to defend singles with his freaky balance and scrambling. Giving up all that height and reach completely neutralizes that. How would Spencer Lee do in a scrambling situation against Yianni D or even Jayden Eierman? He might be able to hold his own because he's so damn good, but he's not winning those battles.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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50 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I'm a Chamizo fan (I don't root for him against Americans, of course). But no way 86, homie. He would be almost a foot shorter than some guys at 86 kg, and I'm only exaggerating a little. He may be more skilled than some of the guys up there, but he would get smoked. A lot of his game is being able to defend singles with his freaky balance and scrambling. Giving up all that height and reach completely neutralizes that. How would Spencer Lee do in a scrambling situation against Yianni D or even Jayden Eierman? He might be able to hold his own because he's so damn good, but he's not winning those battles.

There is respectable correlating data.  He beat JB worse than DT, who is one of two favorites to win the weight at the Olympics.  I don't think it's too far fetched.  Styles make matches and Chamizo is a bad matchup for anyone, providing weights are equal (meaning he isn't wrestling 97kg weighing 85kg).  If he were to give worlds at 79 a go this year, he's one of the favorites with whoever Russia sends and JB (if JB goes 79).

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11 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

There is respectable correlating data.  He beat JB worse than DT, who is one of two favorites to win the weight at the Olympics.  I don't think it's too far fetched.  Styles make matches and Chamizo is a bad matchup for anyone, providing weights are equal (meaning he isn't wrestling 97kg weighing 85kg).  If he were to give worlds at 79 a go this year, he's one of the favorites with whoever Russia sends and JB (if JB goes 79).

I think skill for skill, he’d be very competitive. Don’t get me wrong. But length matters in any combat sport, just like weight matters. Length plus weight matters a lot. I just think he’s too small to not get horses by guys almost a foot taller with similar reach advantages. JB too would be very short for 86 kg and he’s taller than Chamizo. 

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I think skill for skill, he’d be very competitive. Don’t get me wrong. But length matters in any combat sport, just like weight matters. Length plus weight matters a lot. I just think he’s too small to not get horses by guys almost a foot taller with similar reach advantages. JB too would be very short for 86 kg and he’s taller than Chamizo. 

I just can't get the visual out of my mind where JB had almost nothing for Chamizo and JB was chasing DT down.  I get what you're saying.  I think Chamizo is an outlier here.  He's used to being the shorter guy by now.  It wouldn't be like Pantaleo going 74kg.

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1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

what do y'all think of haji aliev in this category. he's not in his prime any longer but i think his peak days fit this bill. 

Peak form, yeah, but I took the question as a 'current' question.  If we're talking all-time we have a much larger list to pull from.  Dave Schultz, Dan Gable,  is right up there for me, as well as a fck tonne of Ruskies as well as Icho and Yoshida on the women's side.

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On 4/19/2021 at 3:13 AM, GoNotQuietly said:

There is no better example of a physical monster and a technique monster than the Schultz brothers. 

Both those guys were strong AF. Mark looked the part of a tank more than Dave did, but Dave used to manhandle people, too. Plus, and this is the part I liked best about them, they wrestled MEAN :D 

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On 4/19/2021 at 5:22 PM, wrestlingnerd said:

I think skill for skill, he’d be very competitive. Don’t get me wrong. But length matters in any combat sport, just like weight matters. Length plus weight matters a lot. I just think he’s too small to not get horses by guys almost a foot taller with similar reach advantages. JB too would be very short for 86 kg and he’s taller than Chamizo. 

I used to horse around tall, lanky dudes all the time (I was only about 5'11"). But there was this one kid who was about 6'3" who could literally slap me into a cradle from a full standing position. He had freakishly long arms and my body geometry was just perfectly suited for him, lol. 

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On 4/19/2021 at 2:32 PM, nhs67 said:

I just can't get the visual out of my mind where JB had almost nothing for Chamizo and JB was chasing DT down.  I get what you're saying.  I think Chamizo is an outlier here.  He's used to being the shorter guy by now.  It wouldn't be like Pantaleo going 74kg.

Weight cut vs no weight cut for JB, and post-ACL at best 60% david taylor who either had a serious case of the lifetime jitters in the second period of that match, or FLO put in a buffalo wild wings order and told DT “keep it close or you will destroy JB intrigue, which is bad for business”.  Taylor didn’t even wrestle the second period of that match.  If he actually wrestles, that match ends 8-2 or 8-4.

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41 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Weight cut vs no weight cut for JB, and post-ACL at best 60% david taylor who either had a serious case of the lifetime jitters in the second period of that match, or FLO put in a buffalo wild wings order and told DT “keep it close or you will destroy JB intrigue, which is bad for business”.  Taylor didn’t even wrestle the second period of that match.  If he actually wrestles, that match ends 8-2 or 8-4.

They did actually wrestle.  It was 4-4 and JB was chasing him down.

The same can be said for Chamizo-JB.  JB had very little for Chamizo.

They stepped on the mat to compete.  You're making excuses where they would not.

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

They did actually wrestle.  It was 4-4 and JB was chasing him down.

The same can be said for Chamizo-JB.  JB had very little for Chamizo.

They stepped on the mat to compete.  You're making excuses where they would not.

They did indeed, but your critical analysis is a bit factually incomplete, and you are using “wrestling math” as the crux of your supposition.

The Jordan burroughs who wrestled kyle dake and frank chamizo was not the same dude that wrestled zahid valencia and david taylor.  79kg jordan is superior to 74 kg jordan every day of the week. Two different people. Without acknowledging that, it sounds like frank chamizo, who is living the eating a lot of food life at 74 kg, would be able to compete with david taylor or bo nickal.  That’s bad wrestling math.  Those dudes have legs, arms, muscles, technique and reach for days against chamizo, ankle picks and laces til the cows come home.  This matchup is the exact reason weight classes were created in the first place...

Edited by Drew87

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Hypothetical and I might be very wrong here, but if that last JB-DT was $100,000 for winner $10,000 for loser, and then a $1,000,000 bonus if won by pin or tech, we would have seen a completely different match.  

Edited by 2td3nf

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5 hours ago, Drew87 said:

They did indeed, but your critical analysis is a bit factually incomplete, and you are using “wrestling math” as the crux of your supposition.

The Jordan burroughs who wrestled kyle dake and frank chamizo was not the same dude that wrestled zahid valencia and david taylor.  79kg jordan is superior to 74 kg jordan every day of the week. Two different people. Without acknowledging that, it sounds like frank chamizo, who is living the eating a lot of food life at 74 kg, would be able to compete with david taylor or bo nickal.  That’s bad wrestling math.  Those dudes have legs, arms, muscles, technique and reach for days against chamizo, ankle picks and laces til the cows come home.  This matchup is the exact reason weight classes were created in the first place...

I'm not using wrestling math to say anybody will beat anybody.  I am saying Chamizo, who is a chubby 65 kegger guy beat JB within a month or so that JB nearly beat DT.  They were entirely different matches, yes.  Chamizo did have the better showing against JB than DT.  There is no real argument against that.  JB got zero offense going against one guy and got offense going against the other.

Knowing this, the argument can be easily said that this chubby 65 kegger guy would be a factor up another (Oly) weight class. 

Add in that this chubby 65 kegger guy also lost to the two time reigning 79 kegger champ 4-3.  Do you know the last time any non-domestic guy was within one point of Dake?  It was when he lost to Ghadzi in 2018t the Yarygan.  A match he avenged via 13-0 tech that year at worlds.  The time before that was 2013.

This chubby 65 kegger guy would be a contender at 79 or even 86 right now if he chose.  You're wrong if you believe otherwise.

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16 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

Hypothetical and I might be very wrong here, but if that last JB-DT was $100,000 for winner $10,000 for loser, and then a $1,000,000 bonus if won by pin or tech, we would have seen a completely different match.  

I hope future cards run something similar to this for main events. Each competitor is guaranteed $x, winner takes home $5x, tech = additional $5x, pin = additional $10x. Multiplier of Y for starpower ie Taylor/JB and Chamizo/Dake are not the same as Snyder/Dean or Imar/Nolf

And actively promote the potential purse. Money talks.

Edited by bnwtwg
math is hard

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