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davenowa

New HS WT Class Options

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Will be interesting to see if there is any consensus.  If the dual meet tie-breaker were addressed, perhaps more would opt for 12, but current format may cause 13 to be preferred.  While I like the 12 weight plan, and agree with distribution through the lower and mids, would have rather seen a slight change in the upper weights, as the jump from 152 to 160 is 8, then 160 to 170 is 10, then a doubled increase to 20 pounds from 170 to 190.  Probably too late, but based on distribution of athletes and weight class differences in terms of % of body weight, perhaps 160 could have been 162 (10 pounds jump), and 170 could have been 174 (12 pounds), making the next jump to 190 slightly less than 20 (16 pounds).  

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2021/April/20/NFHS-release-new-weight-classes-for-girls-and-boys-with-options

 

NFHS RELEASE: SEPARATE WEIGHT CLASSES FOR GIRLS; A CHOICE OF WEIGHT CLASSES ESTABLISHED IN HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING

By NFHS | April 20, 2021, 11:55 a.m. (ET)

 
 
 
INDIANAPOLIS, IN (April 20, 2021) — States will have a choice of 12, 13 or 14 weight classes for both boys and girls competition in high school wrestling, effective with the 2023-24 season.

This will be the first separate weight classes established for girls in high school wrestling, and it marks the first time that state associations will have a choice in the number of weight classes.

The landmark change in weight classes was one of several significant revisions recommended by the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) Wrestling Rules Committee at its April 7-9 meeting held virtually this year. All recommendations were subsequently approved by the NFHS Board of Directors.

States must select one of the three sets (12, 13 or 14) of weight classes for girls and one of the three sets (12, 13 or 14) for boys. States cannot adopt all three sets and cannot switch back and forth during the season.

The following weight classes (in pounds) were established for girls competition (girls wrestling girls), effective July 1, 2023:
12 Weight Classes – 100, 107, 114, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 165, 185, 235.
13 Weight Classes – 100, 106, 112, 118, 124, 130, 136, 142, 148, 155, 170, 190, 235.
14 Weight Classes – 100, 105, 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 155, 170, 190, 235.

The following weight classes (in pounds) were established for boys competition (boys wrestling boys or girls wrestling boys), effective July 1, 2023:
12 Weight Classes – 108, 116, 124, 131, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285
13 Weight Classes – 107, 114, 121, 127, 133, 139, 145, 152, 160, 172, 189, 215, 285
14 Weight Classes – 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285


“Previous surveys have indicated a varying number of weight classes that states wanted, so the committee attempted to meet the needs of as many people as possible,” said Elliot Hopkins, NFHS director of sports and student services and liaison to the Wrestling Rules Committee. “We have more and more state associations sponsoring girls wrestling and holding state championships for girls, so the committee believed it was time to establish uniform weight classifications for girls.

“The recommended weights were established based upon more than 215,000 assessments from the National Wrestling Coaches Association. We are excited about these changes to weight classes in high school wrestling as we believe it will provide more opportunities for male and female student-athletes to be involved in this great sport.”

In another major change affecting risk minimization, a separate 5-minute time-out has been established for the onsite health-care professional to evaluate potential head and neck injuries involving the cervical column (HNC) and/or nervous system.
“There was a desire to establish a separate injury time-out that concerns the head and neck involving the cervical column and/or nervous system and not connect it with the existing 1½-minute injury time-outs or any other stoppage of the match,” Hopkins said. “This separate time-out is supported and covered in existing rules that give the referee the authority to observe the signs, symptoms and behaviors of a concussion and respond appropriately.”

As a result of the separate HNC time-out, which takes effect next year, a number of other rules in the 2021-22 NFHS Wrestling Rules Book will be altered.

The other significant change in high school wrestling rules for 2021-22 addresses the number of matches allowed in one day of competition. Currently, no wrestler shall represent the school in more than one weight class in any meet or wrestle in more than five matches, excluding forfeits, in any one day of competition.

A change provides an exception to Rule 1-4-3 as follows: “No wrestler shall wrestle in more than six matches (championship or consolation), excluding forfeits, in any one day of a tournament conducted by the state high school association for qualification to the state high school championships or the specific state championships.”

This change was enacted as a result of a successful experiment by the Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association. Hopkins said that increasing the number of matches from five to six would allow postseason tournaments with more than eight competitors in a weight class to complete the tournament in one day. He said, in many cases, this change would eliminate the need for schools to stay overnight to participate in respective state qualifying tournaments and state championship events.

“Since this exception would only allow six matches per day to be wrestled in the postseason qualifying tournament or state championship event, the impact on the total number of matches that an individual wrestles in an entire season would be minimal,” Hopkins said. “We do not want to extend this change to the regular season, and this exception would not come into play for the majority of participants.”

Two other minor changes were made in the rules for next year. Rule 4-5-7 no longer will require low-cut socks to be worn as a part of the weigh-in procedure, and one change was made in Rule 5-1-1 dealing with choice of position during bad time.
A complete listing of the wrestling rules changes will be available on the NFHS website at www.nfhs.org. Click on “Activities & Sports” at the top of the home page and select “Wrestling.”

According to the most recent NFHS High School Athletics Participation Survey, wrestling is the seventh-most popular sport for boys with 247,441 participants in 10,843 schools. In addition, a total of 21,124 girls are involved in the sport in 2,890 schools.

About the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS)
The NFHS, based in Indianapolis, Indiana, is the national leadership organization for high school sports and performing arts activities. Since 1920, the NFHS has led the development of education-based interscholastic sports and performing arts activities that help students succeed in their lives. The NFHS sets direction for the future by building awareness and support, improving the participation experience, establishing consistent standards and rules for competition, and helping those who oversee high school sports and activities. The NFHS writes playing rules for 17 sports for boys and girls at the high school level. Through its 50 member state associations and the District of Columbia, the NFHS reaches more than 19,500 high schools and 12 million participants in high school activity programs, including almost eight million in high school sports. As the recognized national authority on interscholastic activity programs, the NFHS conducts national meetings; sanctions interstate events; offers online publications and services for high school coaches and officials; sponsors professional organizations for high school coaches, officials, speech and debate coaches, and music adjudicators; serves as the national source for interscholastic coach training; and serves as a national information resource of interscholastic athletics and activities. For more information, visit the NFHS website at www.nfhs.org.

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On 4/23/2021 at 7:13 PM, nhs67 said:

I secretly want every state to pick 13.  Tie-breaker is so easy then.

1-Least DQs

2-Most Matches

Not really, if there is a double forfeit then you need more tiebreakers.

P.S. There are no "perfect" set of weight classes and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. Everyone will always see things from their team's perspective and think that would lead to the best weight classes. The simple fact is weight classes aren't the reason for the increase in forfeits, it's because coaches aren't building their programs up to have a sufficient amount of kids in the program.

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11 hours ago, BobDole said:

Not really, if there is a double forfeit then you need more tiebreakers.

P.S. There are no "perfect" set of weight classes and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. Everyone will always see things from their team's perspective and think that would lead to the best weight classes. The simple fact is weight classes aren't the reason for the increase in forfeits, it's because coaches aren't building their programs up to have a sufficient amount of kids in the program.

I agree with the latter portion. 

Just make the 3rd criteria "Last match won.' and we're good.

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I'm fine with an even number, but would like to see that in conjunction with modified margin of victory team scoring which would eliminate the need for a tie-breaker in 99.7% of matches.  Details as follows (please don't fear the decimal, as with computerized scoring, it would be simple for even the non-math folks): 

Team Scoring (rewards all points scored, increasing action for duration of the match)

Implement “Margin of Victory” bonus.  

a. 3 pts remain for a win (including any OT win), plus 0.1 to 1.4 for MOV (for a “Margin of Victory from 1 pt to 14 pts), resulting in team pts of 3.0 to 4.4 for any decision, with TF still 5 (for MOV or match lead of 15 pts or more) and pin or default 6, but a forfeit at a weight class with a wrestler becomes 7 points (when accompanied by locked line-ups). 

b. For tournaments, simplify by eliminating advancement points and simply award team pts as shown (3.0 to 6.0 pts), with consi bracket points cut in half, maintaining placement points.  Byes (when followed by a win) would be worth 3 points on championship side and 1.5 points in consi bracket.  

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Going back to the old 215?   Why not keep the 220? 

Also if 235 is the highest for girls at HS level,  we need to do better at the college level than 191 being the heaviest.  That's horsecrap!   

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On 4/26/2021 at 10:42 AM, davenowa said:

I'm fine with an even number, but would like to see that in conjunction with modified margin of victory team scoring which would eliminate the need for a tie-breaker in 99.7% of matches.  Details as follows (please don't fear the decimal, as with computerized scoring, it would be simple for even the non-math folks): 

Team Scoring (rewards all points scored, increasing action for duration of the match)

Implement “Margin of Victory” bonus.  

a. 3 pts remain for a win (including any OT win), plus 0.1 to 1.4 for MOV (for a “Margin of Victory from 1 pt to 14 pts), resulting in team pts of 3.0 to 4.4 for any decision, with TF still 5 (for MOV or match lead of 15 pts or more) and pin or default 6, but a forfeit at a weight class with a wrestler becomes 7 points (when accompanied by locked line-ups). 

b. For tournaments, simplify by eliminating advancement points and simply award team pts as shown (3.0 to 6.0 pts), with consi bracket points cut in half, maintaining placement points.  Byes (when followed by a win) would be worth 3 points on championship side and 1.5 points in consi bracket.  

Why the extra point for a forfeit?  There are many instances where it’s prudent on the coaches part not to wrestle a kid especially if they have absolutely no shot and will only be demoralized. I had an 82 lber wrestling 106 this season so I certainly wasn’t wrestling him against some of the top 106 pounders in the state. Should I be penalized for that?  Maybe I’m misunderstanding. 

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On 5/2/2021 at 7:23 PM, Plasmodium said:

Including win by forfeit?

As a fan of freestyle scoring, I would say something as simple as 'best/worst/last' could solve the tiebreaker situation.  Perhaps a caveat that it must be matches taken to the mat, meaning forfeits don't count in the tiebreaker.

In this scenario 'best' would be pinfalls, then techfalls, then majors, then regular decisions.

Worst would be team deductions.

Last would be last match one.

Forfeits, while they count towards the final score, don't get taken into consideration for the tiebreaker.  Meaning if the final is 42-42 in a 14 match dual, with one team garnering 7 pinfalls, and the other garnering 6 pinfalls and a forfeit, then the team with the 7 pinfalls wins.  A DQ win would count as a pinfall.

I get that there could be gamesmanship from coaches going into the last weight and being up six points, just throwing out the void.  Not sure how that could/would be avoided.

Hrmm... I suppose that in freestyle there is no discrimination.  They would allow the 6 points for the forfeit to count towards the criteria.

So ignore above.

Simple best, worst, last.  Even if forfeit, yes.

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On 5/8/2021 at 6:54 AM, nhs67 said:

As a fan of freestyle scoring, I would say something as simple as 'best/worst/last' could solve the tiebreaker situation.  Perhaps a caveat that it must be matches taken to the mat, meaning forfeits don't count in the tiebreaker.

In this scenario 'best' would be pinfalls, then techfalls, then majors, then regular decisions.

Worst would be team deductions.

Last would be last match one.

Forfeits, while they count towards the final score, don't get taken into consideration for the tiebreaker.  Meaning if the final is 42-42 in a 14 match dual, with one team garnering 7 pinfalls, and the other garnering 6 pinfalls and a forfeit, then the team with the 7 pinfalls wins.  A DQ win would count as a pinfall.

I get that there could be gamesmanship from coaches going into the last weight and being up six points, just throwing out the void.  Not sure how that could/would be avoided.

Hrmm... I suppose that in freestyle there is no discrimination.  They would allow the 6 points for the forfeit to count towards the criteria.

So ignore above.

Simple best, worst, last.  Even if forfeit, yes.

The existing NFHS tiebreaker already uses similar criteria.

Edited by wnywrestling

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On 5/8/2021 at 6:54 AM, nhs67 said:

As a fan of freestyle scoring, I would say something as simple as 'best/worst/last' could solve the tiebreaker situation.  Perhaps a caveat that it must be matches taken to the mat, meaning forfeits don't count in the tiebreaker.

In this scenario 'best' would be pinfalls, then techfalls, then majors, then regular decisions.

Worst would be team deductions.

Last would be last match one.

Forfeits, while they count towards the final score, don't get taken into consideration for the tiebreaker.  Meaning if the final is 42-42 in a 14 match dual, with one team garnering 7 pinfalls, and the other garnering 6 pinfalls and a forfeit, then the team with the 7 pinfalls wins.  A DQ win would count as a pinfall.

I get that there could be gamesmanship from coaches going into the last weight and being up six points, just throwing out the void.  Not sure how that could/would be avoided.

Hrmm... I suppose that in freestyle there is no discrimination.  They would allow the 6 points for the forfeit to count towards the criteria.

So ignore above.

Simple best, worst, last.  Even if forfeit, yes.

In a tiebreaker scenario as you listed a team should not be punished for the OTHER team forfeiting to them no matter the reason.

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my proposal of 7 pts for a forfeit is in conjunction with locked line-ups.  Full explanation below, but I believe that if a wrestler is submitted to wrestle, and is then pulled (whether from the above-described 82 pounder mismatch, or from the more common ducking of competition), there should be team score consequences to minimize forfeits.  with a locked line-up, it would be coach choice to enter the 82 pounder.  however, if you list and then pull, would be 7 instead of 6.  if the other team has a known power at 106, and you intend to forfeit that weight, you would not submit that kid on the line-up.  however, if I am coach B and know that you would be so inclined, I might pencil in my back-up 106 and enter my 106 at 113.  

Matside Weigh-Ins & Locked Line-Ups (improves weight control protocol by discouraging excessive weight loss  and reduces forfeits by locking in line-ups, as well as negating the overly significant impact of the coin toss on the outcome of a dual)

1. Increase all weight classes by 2 pounds to allow for uniforms, shoes, headgear etc.

2. Procedures will vary slightly based on dual meet (or multi dual) and individually bracketed tournaments

3. Dual Meet Procedure

A. Require each coach to submit a locked-in line-up to the official 10 minutes prior to start of dual, just prior to any introductions or playing of National Anthem.  Rationale: a coin toss should not have such an impact on a dual meet result, and forfeits and ducking of quality opponents will be reduced. 

B. Weigh in when reporting to table ready to wrestle (scale available prior, including during warm-ups, to check weight)

C. For a dual-meet team tourney or multi dual, a wrestler can’t compete in more than 2 different weight classes for the event.  Wrestler may compete in class for which qualifies OR may wrestle up 1 (one weight class) above which initial weigh in of the event allows.  Ex:  Wrestler A makes 132 for first dual.  This allows him to wrestle 132 or 138 during event, provided he makes weight for subsequent rounds.  If he does not make 132, he may still wrestle 138, but MAY NOT wrestle 145.  Also, a wrestler may not “go down a weight class” during the course of the dual meet tourney (for instance, if over by a half pound for initial dual, can’t proceed to lose weight for subsequent rounds).

D. Weigh ins will be held prior to each “odd” round of the dual tourney/multi meet.  Scratch weight for round one, with one additional pound for round #3 and a second additional pound for round #5 (maximum number of matches in 1 day per NFHS). 

E.  If wrestler who is listed on lineup for that dual does not make weight when called matside, it is a forfeit and that wrestler may not wrestle at a higher weight class in that same dual.  That wrestler may not be replaced by a teammate--it is a forfeit.  If a team lists a wrestler on their match line-up and proceeds to forfeit that weight class (either by failure to make weight or by electing to not wrestle), that forfeit will be worth 7 points.

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3 hours ago, BobDole said:

In a tiebreaker scenario as you listed a team should not be punished for the OTHER team forfeiting to them no matter the reason.

I said ignore the previous. Best worst last

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Dave, cool ideas. I’m not sure it will reduce ducking. Let’s say I have a good 145 lber, one of my best wrestlers but you have an even better one...why wouldn’t I just pencil my guy in at 152?  There’s no chance we’d see that match. With the way it is now at least you’ll see those matches half the time. You’d have coaches guessing their opponents line up and adjusting theirs accordingly right?  What am I missing?

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I do agree coin flips play too high a role in many a dual. But it’s also part of the fun of coaching.  I’d hate to lose that strategic part of the sport. 

Also think mat side weigh ins are a bad look. Puts way too much emphasis on weight for the spectator. And if you step the mat in a huge match in front of a packed gym what a smacked ass you’d feel like if you missed weight. 

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Responses in red

1. Increase all weight classes by 2 pounds to allow for uniforms, shoes, headgear etc.
Does nothing, kids will just cut more. Not matter the weight class everyone will continue to get every advantage possible. That's the nature of the sport. No need to "adjust" the weight classes at all.

2. Procedures will vary slightly based on dual meet (or multi dual) and individually bracketed tournaments

3. Dual Meet Procedure

A. Require each coach to submit a locked-in line-up to the official 10 minutes prior to start of dual, just prior to any introductions or playing of National Anthem.  Rationale: a coin toss should not have such an impact on a dual meet result, and forfeits and ducking of quality opponents will be reduced. 
Your vendetta against the coin flip is entertaining. This locked line-up thing won't work, coaches will still duck opponents just as much if not more with this procedure. My suggestion is to be prepared and have your kids prepared for line-up shifts. That's a part of the game and what makes some coaches absolutely awesome in dual meets. It adds excitement and intrigue when line-up shifts happen on the fly.

B. Weigh in when reporting to table ready to wrestle (scale available prior, including during warm-ups, to check weight)

Wrestling is embarrassing enough for kids, now they will weigh-in in front of a crowd and I can only imagine the boo's that will reign down if a kid blows weight. At least now if a kid misses weight its in the weigh-in room and not in front of parents, friends, teachers, etc.

C. For a dual-meet team tourney or multi dual, a wrestler can’t compete in more than 2 different weight classes for the event.  Wrestler may compete in class for which qualifies OR may wrestle up 1 (one weight class) above which initial weigh in of the event allows.  Ex:  Wrestler A makes 132 for first dual.  This allows him to wrestle 132 or 138 during event, provided he makes weight for subsequent rounds.  If he does not make 132, he may still wrestle 138, but MAY NOT wrestle 145.  Also, a wrestler may not “go down a weight class” during the course of the dual meet tourney (for instance, if over by a half pound for initial dual, can’t proceed to lose weight for subsequent rounds).

This is just added rules and regulations that referees have to keep track of even more. Referees have more crap to do before a match than ever before. Let's not give them more stuff they need to worry about and let them ref the actual matches. On top of that multiple weigh-ins per day would be bad for the sport. I would hate to tell a 15-18 year old kid to monitor their weight within a couple pounds for 8 hours so they make weight every round. I would challenge you to making your weight stay within a pound all day after having 5 workouts and trying to recover so you are just as good in the first one as the last one. Don't put added stress on the kids.

D. Weigh ins will be held prior to each “odd” round of the dual tourney/multi meet.  Scratch weight for round one, with one additional pound for round #3 and a second additional pound for round #5 (maximum number of matches in 1 day per NFHS). 

See above, too many weigh-ins, too many opportunities for a kid to be embarrassed in front of everyone, and lastly too many rules.

E.  If wrestler who is listed on lineup for that dual does not make weight when called matside, it is a forfeit and that wrestler may not wrestle at a higher weight class in that same dual.  That wrestler may not be replaced by a teammate--it is a forfeit.  If a team lists a wrestler on their match line-up and proceeds to forfeit that weight class (either by failure to make weight or by electing to not wrestle), that forfeit will be worth 7 points.

More forfeits are bad for the sport. On top of embarrassing a kid in front of a crowd now you are punishing the kid and team. We already have too many forfeits, we don't need to add more.

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National rankings will be a headache. I hope this plan gets scrapped. Also seems to me that the really good states like PA, NJ, etc. will standardize and leave kids from weak states looking even more JV.

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What drives me nuts is PA is leaning on the 13.  Less populated states like KS going 14.   I could see if you have a dual championships lessening it (potentially).  But 14 is fine for invitationals in post season.  

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1 hour ago, davenowa said:

would any states hesitant to go to 12 be more amenable if post-season permitted 14 (so 2nd entrant in any 2 weight classes), similar to what some states already implement?

This would be similar to NCAA in the 60s. Everyone  used118-177 and Unl during the season. Generally the West added 115 and the East 191. Both used at NCAAs.

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I was looking at maintaining the 12 wts for post-season, allowing teams to enter a 2nd wrestler at any 2 of the 12 classes, in keeping with concept of 14 entries (as opposed to increasing to 14 wt classes for post-season)

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