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Hypothetical: Kyle Dake GOAT status?

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pondering a thought today that was brought up on FRL within the last month I believe.

lets say Kyle Dake wins Gold at olympics then follows that up later this year with a gold in the 2021 world championships.

this would put him as a 4x NCAA champ (at 4 weights with no RS) as well as a 4x world/olympic champion.

does this immediately move him into the top 5 of all time wrestling GOATs?  What about senior level GOATs?

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3 minutes ago, portajohn said:

Definitely worth a discussion. If this does happen Im thinking they'll be pushback that 2 of those worlds happened at 79kg

Caels one of the greatest ever and he only has on Olympic gold and a world silver. Considering Dakes the 2nd best college wrestler ever if he wins 2 medals over great competition at 74kg then he's gotta be top 5

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Its hard to remain relevant if you aren't the most decorated in the long run. No one remembers the soviet era heavyweight Ivanitsky even though he has the distinction of never giving up a point at the senior international level.

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So what is the criteria.  GOAT of the US or of the world.  I'd say not yet for the world.  He may become that.  But he doesn't have that many years on the international senior circuit to give him that.  He has participated in 2 WCs and came out with Gold.  Now a projection of an Oly gold and 2021 WC gold?  He  may do that, he may not.  He would have to surpass Saitiev, Belaglozov,Faedsev, and others to be considered GOAT of the world.

As for the US, he has John Smith, JB, Mark and Dave Schultz, and The Mighty Bruce to contend with.   Dake is good, but I think he has a ways to go to prove GOAT-worthy.

mspart

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11 minutes ago, mspart said:

So what is the criteria.  GOAT of the US or of the world.  I'd say not yet for the world.  He may become that.  But he doesn't have that many years on the international senior circuit to give him that.  He has participated in 2 WCs and came out with Gold.  Now a projection of an Oly gold and 2021 WC gold?  He  may do that, he may not.  He would have to surpass Saitiev, Belaglozov,Faedsev, and others to be considered GOAT of the world.

As for the US, he has John Smith, JB, Mark and Dave Schultz, and The Mighty Bruce to contend with.   Dake is good, but I think he has a ways to go to prove GOAT-worthy.

mspart

With 3 World golds and a Olympic Gold he would only be behind John Smith, JB and Mighty Bruce IMO

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57 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Whether right or wrong, 2021 worlds champs will not carry the same weight as an olympic gold. See: the saga of world champion Logan Streibler.

Two things about that:

1) no world championships carry the same weight as Olympic gold. 
 

2) 2021 world championships and 2016 non Olympic weight championships are total apples and oranges. 2016 was four weight, Olympic athletes, not just medalist,  but anyone who qualified for the games was not eligible. 2021 is ten weights and everyone eligible. 
 

If Dake were to pull of the double gold he has a great argument for top 5 US. Going four in a row twice (NCAA and World) is super impressive. I don’t think the non Olympic weights hurt him when you consider two others that are going to be top five wrestled their whole careers with ten weights. If 79 was around Dakes whole career he may be sitting on four now...

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I don’t think he has enough time left. Buuut... if he were to go to 86kg and somehow pull a gold there (unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility) he’d have a good argument domestically. I honestly think Dake could be our world rep at 74,79 or 86. 

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What is the competition difference this year in the Olympic and WC tournaments?  I don't think there is much and I don't think you can hold that as being a true "in a row" kind of thing.  Historically, they are spaced by about a year.  Not so this year.  I am willing to be that the 2021 WC champs will be the same as the Oly champs.  There just isn't enough time distance between the tournaments to really count.  I can't remmeber a time when they held WC and Oly in the same year.  Officially I think the determination would be correct, but I think there would be an asterisk there. 

I'm not trying to rain on Dake's parade here, or anyone else.  He is good and I think he has a good chance at this.  But with the WC golds in non oly weights, and it is mostly agreed that those weights are not as deep as the Oly weights, it takes some of the luster away.  Pair that with the Oly's being in the same year as a WC, and it just seems really weird to me to be making GOAT predictions for Dake at this point.  If he continues on and rules the 74 weight in the years to come, then I think there could be some more serious talk of US and Intnl GOAT.  He certainly was right up there with JB for years so he has lost a lot of time for sure. 

mspart

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13 hours ago, Lurker said:

Two things about that:

1) no world championships carry the same weight as Olympic gold. 
 

2) 2021 world championships and 2016 non Olympic weight championships are total apples and oranges. 2016 was four weight, Olympic athletes, not just medalist,  but anyone who qualified for the games was not eligible. 2021 is ten weights and everyone eligible. 
 

If Dake were to pull of the double gold he has a great argument for top 5 US. Going four in a row twice (NCAA and World) is super impressive. I don’t think the non Olympic weights hurt him when you consider two others that are going to be top five wrestled their whole careers with ten weights. If 79 was around Dakes whole career he may be sitting on four now...

You are mistaken on one significant point.  The 2016 World Championships were only in 2 weights not 4.  Just 61kg and 70 kg were contested in Freestyle that year.  Later on the UWW added 79 kg and 92 kg into the Freestyle weights.  (In Greco the 2 weights were 71 & 80) - I do agree with most of the other points you are making.  The fact that everyone is eligible is a huge difference.  A lot of people are speculating that wrestlers that compete in the Olympics will not be interested/motivated to go to a World Championship 2 months later.  I would guess that in most cases provided the athletes are reasonably healthy they will want to go.  We will see.

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I think it is hard to crown somebody as the GOAT when it took them 5 years after college to finally make a world team (at a non-olympic weight).  Dake might be the best in the world at the moment, but he's got a ways to go to reach GOAT status.

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Let's review this after he's surpassed JB's Gold totals in 2.5 years, then surpasses John Smith's at the 2024 Oly Games.

For the record: The answer is yes.  If the OP hypothetical comes true he would be a US Goat.  If the one I posted comes true, he would be the US Goat.

I'm sure even then he'll lose these hypothetical matches.  I'm sure all the other non-world medalists who keep dismissing his medals and will continue to dismiss his medals know better than me, though.

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1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

You are mistaken on one significant point.  The 2016 World Championships were only in 2 weights not 4.  Just 61kg and 70 kg were contested in Freestyle that year.  Later on the UWW added 79 kg and 92 kg into the Freestyle weights.  (In Greco the 2 weights were 71 & 80) - I do agree with most of the other points you are making.  The fact that everyone is eligible is a huge difference.  A lot of people are speculating that wrestlers that compete in the Olympics will not be interested/motivated to go to a World Championship 2 months later.  I would guess that in most cases provided the athletes are reasonably healthy they will want to go.  We will see.

Good point regarding the weight classes in '16.  Thank you.

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1 hour ago, Bozak2018 said:

I think it is hard to crown somebody as the GOAT when it took them 5 years after college to finally make a world team (at a non-olympic weight).  Dake might be the best in the world at the moment, but he's got a ways to go to reach GOAT status.

The question was, if he adds two more gold this year, would you have him in top 5 US.. 

Far cry from anyone crowning him THE goat at the moment.

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33 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Does this hypothetical assume Kyle Snyder drops dead tomorrow?

Snyder is absolutely ahead of him so far. Remember this is based on Dake winning an Olympic Gold and another Worlds soon after.   With that said, I believe many view Snyder with considerably less luster after the past couple of years.  Getting pinned by Sadulaev and Mohammadian added a lot to his vulnerability factor and the Sharifov and Magomedov losses don't help.  He can easily still medal, but not being a favorite sort of drops his GOAT status.

Edited by MSU158

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25 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Snyder is absolutely ahead of him so far. Remember this is based on Dake winning an Olympic Gold and another Worlds soon after.   With that said, I believe many view Snyder with considerably less luster after the past couple of years.  Getting pinned by Sadulaev and Mohammadian added a lot to his vulnerability factor and the Sharifov and Magomedov losses don't help.  He can easily still medal, but not being a favorite sort of drops his GOAT status.

Agree.  Snyder is still young and will have several more chances to add to his legacy, though is not currently the "hot" pick.

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1.  Smith

2. Burroughs

3. Cael

4. Bruce

5. Snyder

HM:  Gable, Dake, D. Schulz

Dake could certainly move into the top 5 when all is said and done.  But he is already 30, so how much does he have left in him before Father Time wins?

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I guess we would have to figure out who are top 5 are and who he might replace. I think top 3 are obvious but order is debatable. Not sure how you can justify Cael above Bruce? 4 and 5 are a little murkier. I’d have it

1. Smith 

2. Burroughs 

3. Baumgartner

4. Snyder

5. Kemp

If Dake wins two golds this year, and Snyder wins 0, then I think Dake moves to #4. 4 world titles in 4 years has only been done by Smith in the US (correct me if I’m wrong). I don’t think we can count the non-Olympic weight against Dake because we don’t count it against others when their were 10 weights and one Soviet Union. Plus if he beats Burroughs and wins Olympics that should remove doubt of his capabilities in the other years.

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13 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I guess we would have to figure out who are top 5 are and who he might replace. I think top 3 are obvious but order is debatable. Not sure how you can justify Cael above Bruce? 4 and 5 are a little murkier. I’d have it

1. Smith 

2. Burroughs 

3. Baumgartner

4. Snyder

5. Kemp

If Dake wins two golds this year, and Snyder wins 0, then I think Dake moves to #4. 4 world titles in 4 years has only been done by Smith in the US (correct me if I’m wrong). I don’t think we can count the non-Olympic weight against Dake because we don’t count it against others when their were 10 weights and one Soviet Union. Plus if he beats Burroughs and wins Olympics that should remove doubt of his capabilities in the other years.

Your current Top 5 looks good to me!

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Ya'll are making me realize we have had some special talents, man.  I thought the conversation was 'YES DEFINITELY' if he were to win both this year.

I think he would need to win another one after this year to be in it, personally.  At least either of the lists mentioned just above.

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15 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I guess we would have to figure out who are top 5 are and who he might replace. I think top 3 are obvious but order is debatable. Not sure how you can justify Cael above Bruce? 4 and 5 are a little murkier. I’d have it

1. Smith 

2. Burroughs 

3. Baumgartner

4. Snyder

5. Kemp

If Dake wins two golds this year, and Snyder wins 0, then I think Dake moves to #4. 4 world titles in 4 years has only been done by Smith in the US (correct me if I’m wrong). I don’t think we can count the non-Olympic weight against Dake because we don’t count it against others when their were 10 weights and one Soviet Union. Plus if he beats Burroughs and wins Olympics that should remove doubt of his capabilities in the other years.

At this point, why Burroughs over Baumgartner? Same number of golds. Burroughs has eight medals, Baumgartner 13.  Burroughs medaled in one Olympics (gold), Baumgartner in four (gold, silver, gold, bronze).  Baumgartner competed in an era with more weight classes. Burroughs competed in an era where more bronze medals are awarded.

Maybe it comes down to what you value more a streak vs longevity.

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1 hour ago, luckysevens said:

At this point, why Burroughs over Baumgartner? Same number of golds. Burroughs has eight medals, Baumgartner 13.  Burroughs medaled in one Olympics (gold), Baumgartner in four (gold, silver, gold, bronze).  Baumgartner competed in an era with more weight classes. Burroughs competed in an era where more bronze medals are awarded.

Maybe it comes down to what you value more a streak vs longevity.

Definitely debatable. I gave the nod to Burroughs because I’ve seen how razor thin some of his losses were and how close actually was to even surpassing Smith. Probably makes me biased since I didn’t see Bruce but I think his career being checkered with losses shows he was never quite as dominant as Burroughs.

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