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Billy, I have the same question as 103. Where is the data that states immunity via vaccine is better than immunity via catching and beating the virus?

I am unaware of any serious effort to collect antibody testing information, but if it exists I would be interested in reading it. 

Finally, I read somewhere of a 100 plus year old woman that tested positive for antibodies for the Spanish flu she had contracted as an infant or toddler. What do you make of something like that? 

Btw, I just left a big box store garden center which is partially roofed. The store itself is well known to have a mask policy, however, several employees and numerous shoppers were literally maskless. Not improperly wearing masks, but without them entirely. Some of the shoppers were obviously 70 plus yrs old. Things are turning, mandates or not.

Edited by TBar1977

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Billy, I have the same question as 103. Where is the data that states immunity via vaccine is better than immunity via catching and beating the virus?

I am unaware of any serious effort to collect antibody testing information, but if it exists I would be interested in reading it. 

Finally, I read somewhere of a 100 plus year old woman that tested positive for antibodies for the Spanish flu she had as an infant or toddler. What do you make of something like that? 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2639-4

Here you go-here's the clinical trial.  The second shot gives you almost 10 fold higher neutralizing antibody levels than a natural infection. 

 

In terms of the 100 year old woman with immunity from Spanish flu, that is completely correct and is due to having what are called memory immune cells.  Everyone vaccinated will have immunity for the rest of our lives-over time that immunity will become weaker as the cells that produce a ton of antibodies (plasma cells) die off, but it will likely never go away completely due to memory cells (if we wipe out or B cells due to a cancer therapy it will though). So if we are introduced to the same covid variant we have been immunized to 10 years from now, maybe we will get infected, but our memory cells will kick into gear and give us some level of protection (whether or not we actually get sick depends on tons of factors, but I will never really be worried about covid again the way that I was prior to vaccination).  The problem is that variants partially evade the immune response-so it's kind of like getting a slightly different flu if you have immunity to spanish flu.  You will still have some immunity to it if you were previously infected with covid, but it's in your best interest (and the interest of those around you) that you have the best protection possible, which is achieved through vaccination.  

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2639-4

Here you go-here's the clinical trial.  The second shot gives you almost 10 fold higher neutralizing antibody levels than a natural infection. 

 

In terms of the 100 year old woman with immunity from Spanish flu, that is completely correct and is due to having what are called memory immune cells.  Everyone vaccinated will have immunity for the rest of our lives-over time that immunity will become weaker as the cells that produce a ton of antibodies (plasma cells) die off, but it will likely never go away completely due to memory cells (if we wipe out or B cells due to a cancer therapy it will though). So if we are introduced to the same covid variant we have been immunized to 10 years from now, maybe we will get infected, but our memory cells will kick into gear and give us some level of protection (whether or not we actually get sick depends on tons of factors, but I will never really be worried about covid again the way that I was prior to vaccination).  The problem is that variants partially evade the immune response-so it's kind of like getting a slightly different flu if you have immunity to spanish flu.  You will still have some immunity to it if you were previously infected with covid, but it's in your best interest (and the interest of those around you) that you have the best protection possible, which is achieved through vaccination.  

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the information. I can't read that length piece right now but will do so tomorrow.

I have been vaccinated. Moderna, both doses.

Edited by TBar1977

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I've bitten my tongue (fingers) so far because every thread with any mention of COVID turns into a dumpster fire that a lava-spouting volcano would envy. 

In the interest of civil discussion, I want to point out that every virus is different, so you cannot deduce much about vaccine-induced immunity versus immunity due to infection for COVID from what happened with another virus like Spanish flu. Also, importantly, not all vaccines are the same. The premise that a 100 year old lady developed long-lasting immunity to Spanish flu from natural infection, ergo, natural immunity is as good or better than a vaccine for COVID is not logically sound. For some viruses, yes, for others, no.

In the interest of speed, the current COVID vaccines were specifically targeted to the virus's spike proteins. When you get the vaccine, you make antibodies against the virus's spike proteins. Not targeting other viral proteins was a major risk, but it paid off handsomely and is the reason why we are reopening at a good pace. What is rarely discussed outside research circles is how incredibly effective the vaccines are even as the virus mutates into many variants.  We have to get vaccines for another virus, the flu, every year because the flu mutates in ways that escape prior vaccines. So far, not so for COVID. Ironically, while the spike proteins that the vaccines target can change, the parts of the virus that the T cells we also make after getting vaccinated can recognize and then neutralize do not change in COVID variants.

On a related note, at the risk of setting off another COVID shtbomb here, the reason the scientific community is quick to lambaste antivaxxer fake news is that there is no guarantee this continues forever. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with science. Antivaxxer sentiment is the only thing standing between us and herd immunity right now. There are plenty of vaccines to go around now, and I expect children of all ages to have vaccines approved for them before the next school year starts.

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43 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I've bitten my tongue (fingers) so far because every thread with any mention of COVID turns into a dumpster fire that a lava-spouting volcano would envy. 

In the interest of civil discussion, I want to point out that every virus is different, so you cannot deduce much about vaccine-induced immunity versus immunity due to infection for COVID from what happened with another virus like Spanish flu. Also, importantly, not all vaccines are the same. The premise that a 100 year old lady developed long-lasting immunity to Spanish flu from natural infection, ergo, natural immunity is as good or better than a vaccine for COVID is not logically sound. For some viruses, yes, for others, no.

In the interest of speed, the current COVID vaccines were specifically targeted to the virus's spike proteins. When you get the vaccine, you make antibodies against the virus's spike proteins. Not targeting other viral proteins was a major risk, but it paid off handsomely and is the reason why we are reopening at a good pace. What is rarely discussed outside research circles is how incredibly effective the vaccines are even as the virus mutates into many variants.  We have to get vaccines for another virus, the flu, every year because the flu mutates in ways that escape prior vaccines. So far, not so for COVID. Ironically, while the spike proteins that the vaccines target can change, the parts of the virus that the T cells we also make after getting vaccinated can recognize and then neutralize do not change in COVID variants.

On a related note, at the risk of setting off another COVID shtbomb here, the reason the scientific community is quick to lambaste antivaxxer fake news is that there is no guarantee this continues forever. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with science. Antivaxxer sentiment is the only thing standing between us and herd immunity right now. There are plenty of vaccines to go around now, and I expect children of all ages to have vaccines approved for them before the next school year starts.

Another thing  to add that is not often discussed, and in fact often misinformed, is that this vaccine has not been in developed in just a year.  It has been in development for over a decade, with most of the foundational pieces in place before SARS-COV-2 even came about.  It's actually a pretty fascinating story how its come about.

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21 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Another thing  to add that is not often discussed, and in fact often misinformed, is that this vaccine has not been in developed in just a year.  It has been in development for over a decade, with most of the foundational pieces in place before SARS-COV-2 even came about.  It's actually a pretty fascinating story how its come about.

It was DARPA research, am I right?

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4 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

It was DARPA research, am I right?

Don't know about DARPA, but it all started with a man over a decade ago who started researching a rare disease the was killing infants.  The disease didn't reach a lot of children, but if you got it you didn't have much of a chance.  He started the research, then formed a team, so on and so on.  And basically when covid came around, they had the foundation, just needed the dna of the spike protein.  (Short version)

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Don't know about DARPA, but it all started with a man over a decade ago who started researching a rare disease the was killing infants.  The disease didn't reach a lot of children, but if you got it you didn't have much of a chance.  He started the research, then formed a team, so on and so on.  And basically when covid came around, they had the foundation, just needed the dna of the spike protein.  (Short version)

OK.  Very interesting.  I had heard that DARPA had a lot of mRNA stuff done in case of a bio-attack, and it was relatively simple to apply it to Covid.    Maybe it started in that instance you refer to.

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3 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

OK.  Very interesting.  I had heard that DARPA had a lot of mRNA stuff done in case of a bio-attack, and it was relatively simple to apply it to Covid.    Maybe it started in that instance you refer to.

Ahhhh, gotcha. I'll try to find some of the stuff I was reading and link it here.  It was a while ago...

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4 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I've bitten my tongue (fingers) so far because every thread with any mention of COVID turns into a dumpster fire that a lava-spouting volcano would envy. 

In the interest of civil discussion, I want to point out that every virus is different, so you cannot deduce much about vaccine-induced immunity versus immunity due to infection for COVID from what happened with another virus like Spanish flu. Also, importantly, not all vaccines are the same. The premise that a 100 year old lady developed long-lasting immunity to Spanish flu from natural infection, ergo, natural immunity is as good or better than a vaccine for COVID is not logically sound. For some viruses, yes, for others, no.

In the interest of speed, the current COVID vaccines were specifically targeted to the virus's spike proteins. When you get the vaccine, you make antibodies against the virus's spike proteins. Not targeting other viral proteins was a major risk, but it paid off handsomely and is the reason why we are reopening at a good pace. What is rarely discussed outside research circles is how incredibly effective the vaccines are even as the virus mutates into many variants.  We have to get vaccines for another virus, the flu, every year because the flu mutates in ways that escape prior vaccines. So far, not so for COVID. Ironically, while the spike proteins that the vaccines target can change, the parts of the virus that the T cells we also make after getting vaccinated can recognize and then neutralize do not change in COVID variants.

On a related note, at the risk of setting off another COVID shtbomb here, the reason the scientific community is quick to lambaste antivaxxer fake news is that there is no guarantee this continues forever. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with science. Antivaxxer sentiment is the only thing standing between us and herd immunity right now. There are plenty of vaccines to go around now, and I expect children of all ages to have vaccines approved for them before the next school year starts.

Can you name a respiratory virus where you don’t get long lasting immunity without mutational drift of the virus? Blood borne pathogens have tricky ways of reinfection, but I’m fairly certain that the reason we keep getting colds and flus every year is due to mutational drift of multiple strains. Meaning, you still retain memory cells and some immunity many years later, but the virus you encounter is different. That is why if the exact same variant of Covid appears 50 years from now, I would expect those still alive from this time to have partial immunity.  
 

The same thing happened with swine flu, where the reason it wasn’t as deadly as expected is due to its similarity to a flu decades earlier. 

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7 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Thank you for the information. I can't read that length piece right now but will do so tomorrow.

I have been vaccinated. Moderna, both doses.

That link is on the Pfizer vaccine, but both are practically identical in efficacy, so it would apply to both. 

3 hours ago, AHamilton said:

It was DARPA research, am I right?

It was many things. The idea of targeting the spike protein is due to years of research on other coronaviruses. mRNA gene delivery technology was developed in an academic lab over the past 20 years.  The mRNA companies Moderna and Biontech started about 10 years ago to use that tech to treat cancer. Then, in part due to Darpa, there was a big push to apply gene delivery tech to develop a vaccine that can be rapidly deployed in the case of a pandemic.  It was incredible foresight on their part and one of the best investments the government has ever made. 

https://www.biocentury.com/article/304691/darpa-s-gambles-might-have-created-the-best-hopes-for-stopping-covid-19

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25 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Can you name a respiratory virus where you don’t get long lasting immunity without mutational drift of the virus? Blood borne pathogens have tricky ways of reinfection, but I’m fairly certain that the reason we keep getting colds and flus every year is due to mutational drift of multiple strains. Meaning, you still retain memory cells and some immunity many years later, but the virus you encounter is different. That is why if the exact same variant of Covid appears 50 years from now, I would expect those still alive from this time to have partial immunity.  
 

The same thing happened with swine flu, where the reason it wasn’t as deadly as expected is due to its similarity to a flu decades earlier. 

Depends on what you mean by long lasting. 5 years? 10 years? 1 year? It's not just due to the reason you mentioned. Antibody levels can decline significantly in relatively short periods of time. If I recall correctly, for the original SARS, it was by half or so just 2-3 years out. 

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1 hour ago, teach said:

So does this mean Dean is at Penn State?

Sounds like that's the plan right now, but until there's an official announcement plans can always change. Now lets get back to what this forum is really about: infectious disease talk!

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it is very disconcerting but also encouraging that the vax talk in this thread has made it's way to discussion of the nuance in the science among people basically agreeing that vaccination is necessary. the debate at the margins about proper opening procedures which were (imo) premature and dangerous and a form of quasi-anti-vax talk before the vaccines were getting distributed (that i assume some engaged in earnestly without understanding the overlap) are much more salient and relevant now, both scientifically and politically.

it's still going to be a challenge since global vaccination rates are waaaaaaaaaaay behind the US because of supply issues, even in places like Canada and Japan (and to devastating effect in places like India, especially in light of some negative things I've read about the disappointing effectiveness of China's locally developed vaccine) and there are still broad areas of our country that continue to be very vaccine-skeptical and opting out.

Edited by ugarte

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I chose to get vaccinated even after having Covid, but curious...why is it if the fringe/those on the extreme end of the spectrum choose to not get vaccinated it is looked down upon so heavily (not talking about the anti-vax groups either)??  If enough people get the vaccine and/or already got the virus and built up immunity to it, what does it matter if the fringe/small number of people chose not to get the vax (which should be their right)?  If the majority of the high risk folks are vaccinated does it really matter if some chose not to get vaccinated?  In theory if you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to much to worry about right??

Edited by dman115
terrible grammar

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8 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I chose to get vaccinated even after having Covid, but curious...why is it if the fringe/those on the extreme end of the spectrum choose to not get vaccinated it is looked down upon so heavily (not talking about the anti-vax groups either)??  If enough people get the vaccine and/or already got the virus and built up immunity to it, what does it matter if the fringe/small number of people chose not to get the vax (which should be their right)?  If the majority of the high risk folks are vaccinated does it really matter if some chose not to get vaccinated?  In theory if you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to much to worry about right??

the serious answer is that not all people benefit from herd immunity. people with immune-system disorders or children who do not yet have vaccine authorization (an issue that also becomes less salient as approvals for younger ages come in) still need a much more robust herd immunity than what we're currently set to achieve for COVID-19. if it were a fringe problem you're right that it might not matter but vaccine skepticism - not just COVID and appearing in both the libertarian South and the anti-corporate left of Park Slope - is leading to outbreaks of measles and whooping cough. Herd immunity is much trickier than the people who use herd immunity as a way of doing a personal cost-benefit analysis to exempt themselves from taking the vaccine like to pretend.

Edited by ugarte

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6 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I chose to get vaccinated even after having Covid, but curious...why is it if the fringe/those on the extreme end of the spectrum choose to not get vaccinated it is looked down upon so heavily (not talking about the anti-vax groups either)??  If enough people get the vaccine and/or already got the virus and built up immunity to it, what does it matter if the fringe/small number of people chose not to get the vax (which should be their right)?  If the majority of the high risk folks are vaccinated does it really matter if some chose not to get vaccinated?  In theory if you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to much to worry about right??

Right now there is nowhere near a majority getting vaccinated - I believe I've seen just over 1/3 of the national population fully vaccinated?  So we are nowhere near herd immunity.  And without herd immunity, the virus can continue to spread among the non-vaccinated, and new mutations continue to develop - it seems thee is a good chance we will end up in the same situation a year from now.

Perhaps we should consider - if resistance to the vaccine is continued, then surplus supplies should be sent to India (or other underserved nations), where they will likely be eagerly received?

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8 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I chose to get vaccinated even after having Covid, but curious...why is it if the fringe/those on the extreme end of the spectrum choose to not get vaccinated it is looked down upon so heavily (not talking about the anti-vax groups either)??  If enough people get the vaccine and/or already got the virus and built up immunity to it, what does it matter if the fringe/small number of people chose not to get the vax (which should be their right)?  If the majority of the high risk folks are vaccinated does it really matter if some chose not to get vaccinated?  In theory if you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to much to worry about right??

Every infection has the possibility of mutating into a variant that is more infectious, more deadly, and more able to avoid the immunity that the current vaccinations provide.  Where do you think the UK/Brazil/SA/India variants arise?  Every infection has the possibility of infecting someone unable to get the vaccine (immuno-compromised, etc.).

So, yeah, it matters.

Don't want to get vaccinated (avoiding the obvious issue of "why the f*** not?")?  Fine.  Don't take public transportation, don't go to restaurants, don't go to wrestling tournaments, don't go to school.

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54 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I chose to get vaccinated even after having Covid, but curious...why is it if the fringe/those on the extreme end of the spectrum choose to not get vaccinated it is looked down upon so heavily (not talking about the anti-vax groups either)??  If enough people get the vaccine and/or already got the virus and built up immunity to it, what does it matter if the fringe/small number of people chose not to get the vax (which should be their right)?  If the majority of the high risk folks are vaccinated does it really matter if some chose not to get vaccinated?  In theory if you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to much to worry about right??

“They” say about 75% is where we need to get to. “They” say that’s the level where, we won’t be eradicating the virus, but surpress it enough the we carry on with life much like we do with flu. It won’t be a risk of epidemic level breakout. 
 

so with 75% being the needed number, your fringe folks are factored in. 

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