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Max Dean to Penn State?

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

The chance is high that he gets a wrestleoff. Better man wins. 

IF*** Facundo is on campus next year.

Rumor is, still, that he's going to the OTC here in Colorado Springs this upcoming year.

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3 hours ago, Drew87 said:

It does, but you have the actual best guys in the country each year coming in underneath you just about every year, and freshman ncaa champ has happened so many times for them, 7th really is a disappointment, especially since penn state peaks so well.  The average for them is outerforming seeds at NCAA’s.

 

3 hours ago, Elevator said:

Good popint. Signs that Beard and Joe Lee could do great things - I expect they will be more consistent going forward.

Something to keep in mind is that these guys aren't actually freshmen.  Beard, Brooks, and Starocci graduated HS in 2018, so at this point they have had three years in a college room.  Realistically speaking, they are seniors and have  had plenty of time to develop.  That's not to say that Beard can't keep improving, but the biggest improvement generally happens in the first 2-3 years in the NCAA room, and he is not at the level of the other two.  So bringing in Max Dean to compete with Beard and just having the loser of the match transfer could make a ton of sense.  It's one of the risks of going to PSU-the expectations are higher there, so your job is always on the line.  

 

 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

Something to keep in mind is that these guys aren't actually freshmen.  Beard, Brooks, and Starocci graduated HS in 2018, so at this point they have had three years in a college room.  Realistically speaking, they are seniors and have  had plenty of time to develop.  That's not to say that Beard can't keep improving, but the biggest improvement generally happens in the first 2-3 years in the NCAA room, and he is not at the level of the other two.  So bringing in Max Dean to compete with Beard and just having the loser of the match transfer could make a ton of sense.  It's one of the risks of going to PSU-the expectations are higher there, so your job is always on the line.  

 

 

Given that Starocci won a PIAA state title in 2019, I think you might want to check your facts here. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Given that Starocci won a PIAA state title in 2019, I think you might want to check your facts here. 

 

Ah, good point.  I was right for 2/3, and the point about Beard having 3 years in a college room stands.  

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11 hours ago, DanGerMan said:

Fake news!  Dean was on Olympic Redshirt that year so was not even in the conversation. . The 184 / 197 spots were shared between Darmstadt and Loew.

 

9 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

He wasn't even enrolled that year.

His intention was still 197 for the team if/when he were to compete again.  You guys live under a rock?

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8 hours ago, Le duke said:

IF*** Facundo is on campus next year.

Rumor is, still, that he's going to the OTC here in Colorado Springs this upcoming year.

I've heard the same.  I have a feeling that a lot may depend on his performance at Juniors.  Uncle Cael may push for him to enroll if he believes he's a contender out the gate.

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

 

His intention was still 197 for the team if/when he were to compete again.  You guys live under a rock?

Asking from under my rock:  so Darmstadt went down to 184 because Dean, who was not wrestling that year, was going to go up to 197 the next year?  And since he demonstrated that he could not wrestle at 184 and dominated at 197, he would then have to wrestle-off with Dean (along with Cardenas) the next year for the starting spot?  And Dean, who held 184 for three years, (like his brother who held 184 for five years), just couldn't go 184 any more?  And your source for this?

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I love Max Dean and I said he would be a multiple time AA, even though he was a borderline top 100 guy. 
  
I don’t think he makes much of a difference for PSU. It might not do much for Cornell either. 
  
174 is way too stacked next year. Foca is great, but I’d be shocked if he could beat Kemerer, Hidlay, Starocci, Mekhi or Shane. Cornell would’ve scored 0 at 174 and 5-15 at 184. Now?0 at 174 and 5-15 at 184. Doesn’t make much of a difference imo

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12 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

I love Max Dean and I said he would be a multiple time AA, even though he was a borderline top 100 guy. 
  
I don’t think he makes much of a difference for PSU. It might not do much for Cornell either. 
  
174 is way too stacked next year. Foca is great, but I’d be shocked if he could beat Kemerer, Hidlay, Starocci, Mekhi or Shane. Cornell would’ve scored 0 at 174 and 5-15 at 184. Now?0 at 174 and 5-15 at 184. Doesn’t make much of a difference imo

Still think ASU makes the most sense. The RTC has one of the best coaching staffs. Top RTC guys at their weight to train with. A need at the weight at ASU. And a team that will contend for a trophy. 

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35 minutes ago, gobraves101905 said:

Still think ASU makes the most sense. The RTC has one of the best coaching staffs. Top RTC guys at their weight to train with. A need at the weight at ASU. And a team that will contend for a trophy. 

No one ever wants to admit they chose ASU for the weather + girls. You did an admirable job of giving him cover here.

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10 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

Something to keep in mind is that these guys aren't actually freshmen.  Beard, Brooks, and Starocci graduated HS in 2018, so at this point they have had three years in a college room.  Realistically speaking, they are seniors and have  had plenty of time to develop.  That's not to say that Beard can't keep improving, but the biggest improvement generally happens in the first 2-3 years in the NCAA room, and he is not at the level of the other two.  So bringing in Max Dean to compete with Beard and just having the loser of the match transfer could make a ton of sense.  It's one of the risks of going to PSU-the expectations are higher there, so your job is always on the line.  

 

 

It's probably not accurate to call Beard a "freshman" last year, but it's also not accurate to call him a "senior" next year IMO considering like 90% of wrestlers redshirt.   

Edited by 1032004

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55 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

No one ever wants to admit they chose ASU for the weather + girls. You did an admirable job of giving him cover here.

Hilarious.   Looked there myself some years back.

 

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11 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Ah, good point.  I was right for 2/3, and the point about Beard having 3 years in a college room stands.  

Well, more like 1/3, since no one has been saying Brooks was a freshman as your post implied. He’s a sophomore. Like Starocci he has a redshirt year under his belt but so do most top wrestlers from other schools. I agree Beard has an extra year under his belt beyond his redshirt, but you are making it sound like PSU has a bunch of seniors masquerading as freshmen which really is not fair or accurate. 

I also highly doubt anyone on the PSU coaching staff would agree it makes a “ton of sense” to bring in Dean and “just having the loser of the match transfer,” as you say. I think you are painting them to be much more callous than they are. It is very unlikely they were out hunting for an upgrade — not when you have an AA with four years of eligibility remaining. I’m sure PSU would be happy to have a NCAA runner up from *any* weight transfer in, but it’s unlikely they would offer much of any aid, a la Conel. And even if Dean does come and they do wrestle off, I highly doubt they would be looking to show either the door via transfer.

That said, I don’t disagree with your core point that when you wrestle at a top school — whether Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, etc — your slot is always in jeopardy as top recruits and transfers could arrive at any time. 

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4 hours ago, treep2000 said:

you heard it here first... Max Dean to tOSU!

Source:  My imagination

That would be an absolute shocker, especially now that Tervel left.  Coach Ryan has a few years of building to do, their big boy pool is lagging hard right now.  

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35 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

Shumate #5 and Feldman#1 are coming.

Coach Ryan is doing a good job recruiting, tOSU’s upper weights may be strong in the future

Edited by Drew87

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33 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Coach Ryan is doing a good job recruiting, tOSU’s upper weights may be strong in the future

Recruiting hasn't been the problem. Several of his recent big recruits haven't panned out. He's only gotten a couple ncaa points out of Decatur, Romero, Hoffman, and Singletary total, all of whom spent time ranked #1 in high school.

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22 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Recruiting hasn't been the problem. Several of his recent big recruits haven't panned out. He's only gotten a couple ncaa points out of Decatur, Romero, Hoffman, and Singletary total, all of whom spent time ranked #1 in high school.

I was being self-effacing in an attempt at humor, but based on what you just referenced, is he just killing recruits? He seems like a “we’re a team and this is our training program” kinda guy.  that’s a pretty bad track record in terms of athlete development, especially with kharchla getting hurt and echemendia, who was supposed to be a world beater, looking really mediocre and getting hurt, a lot seemingly, in his few outings so far.  Similarly, rocky jordan has just spun his wheels in college, he looks like he has the game at times, but just no giddy-up.

Injuries and things like that really seem to be related to strength and conditioning.  Penn state had a few shoulder issues back in the day, since then I don’t think i’ve seen any dudes with any visible shoulder problems.  But...it’s pretty dark clear that if you go to Penn State, your chances are pretty high that you’ll blow out your knee at some point.  Injury patterns are pretty common across teams.  In a similar fashion, it looks like Cornell is always blowing out knees, their dudes always have full length leg wraps.

Edited by Drew87

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3 hours ago, BAC said:

Well, more like 1/3, since no one has been saying Brooks was a freshman as your post implied. He’s a sophomore. Like Starocci he has a redshirt year under his belt but so do most top wrestlers from other schools. I agree Beard has an extra year under his belt beyond his redshirt, but you are making it sound like PSU has a bunch of seniors masquerading as freshmen which really is not fair or accurate. 

I also highly doubt anyone on the PSU coaching staff would agree it makes a “ton of sense” to bring in Dean and “just having the loser of the match transfer,” as you say. I think you are painting them to be much more callous than they are. It is very unlikely they were out hunting for an upgrade — not when you have an AA with four years of eligibility remaining. I’m sure PSU would be happy to have a NCAA runner up from *any* weight transfer in, but it’s unlikely they would offer much of any aid, a la Conel. And even if Dean does come and they do wrestle off, I highly doubt they would be looking to show either the door via transfer.

That said, I don’t disagree with your core point that when you wrestle at a top school — whether Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, etc — your slot is always in jeopardy as top recruits and transfers could arrive at any time. 

Beard and Brooks both graduated high school in 2018 and have had 3 years to develop post high school. At a normal school, they would be going into senior or RS junior year, and there are questions about how much more Beard will develop from where he is now. He simply isn’t getting the job done at the level PSU expects, and PSU has shown time and time again that they have zero problems recruiting over guys not meeting the standard and allowing them to compete for the spot. The loser of that match then tends to transfer. 
 

Do you have any evidence that Max Dean wouldn’t get anything? He is a 2X AA, and between scholarship (athletic/academic) and other sources of funding, I doubt he will pay much if anything. 

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Beard and Brooks both graduated high school in 2018 and have had 3 years to develop post high school. At a normal school, they would be going into senior or RS junior year, and there are questions about how much more Beard will develop from where he is now. 

I’m not sure what you mean by “normal school.” You mean not PSU? Or you mean a non-D1 wrestling school? I assume the latter, because obviously redshirts exist and are prevalent at every D1 wrestling school (other than Ivies).  And yes, as in all schools with redshirts, their eligibility year is one year behind their school year, but I am not sure of your point here.

I do disagree there is any reason to doubt Beard’s potential for future development. If anything he seems to be on an upswing lately, pinning the tOSU kid that beat him previously, and finishing as an AA with multiple top-10 wins at NCAAs.

 

3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

He simply isn’t getting the job done at the level PSU expects, and PSU has shown time and time again that they have zero problems recruiting over guys not meeting the standard and allowing them to compete for the spot. The loser of that match then tends to transfer. 


What is your basis for saying that Beard is not meeting the PSU coaches’ expectations? I have not heard nor read anything like that. To the contrary I would expect they are ecstatic to have a guy with four years of eligibility remaining finish as an AA in his first year as a starter. Just because PSU has been fortunate enough to have a few freshman champs in the the last several years, that is exceedingly rare and doesn’t mean that is suddenly the minimum standard.

Also disagree PSU is “recruiting over” it’s guys, at least not in a way that is any different from any other top school. No one is guaranteed their spot, but name a school where anyone is. I’m sure PSU wants depth at every weight, where the second string guy is pushing the first stringer — but again, how is that different from any other school, other than the fact that PSU has had more success than most in attracting top talent? I’m aware of no instance in which PSU went out to actively try to replace a returning AA. Examples?

Earlier in the thread you mentioned Nevills, but there is no indication that Cael was dissatisfied with Nevills and tried to “recruit over” him. They didn’t recruit HWT at all on the high school level after landing Seth. When Kerk unexpectedly came on the market for his 4th transfer or whatever it was and expressed interest in PSU, I’m sure PSU was happy to take him, as any other school would have been, but I am not aware of any evidence at all that PSU was dissatisfied with Nevills and hunting for an upgrade. Are you? Do you think PSU should have said “No Greg, do NOT transfer here, we promised the spot to Nevills”, failing which they would be guilty of “recruiting over” Nevills? I can’t imagine there is a D1 program in the country that would turn down Kerk if he wanted to go there. 
 

3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Do you have any evidence that Max Dean wouldn’t get anything? He is a 2X AA, and between scholarship (athletic/academic) and other sources of funding, I doubt he will pay much if anything. 

I don’t have any evidence that Dean is even considering PSU at all, much less any information about aid even if he were. Right now it’s all just the rumor mill as far as I can tell.

I also don’t know how tightly PSU’s 9.9 are currently allocated. But my guess is pretty  tight. It’s also my guess that PSU would not have much to free up, and probably wouldn’t go out of its way to pull athletic money from someone else to accommodate Dean, who would be a nice addition but doesn’t fill a void. I won’t speculate on his eligibility for an academic scholarship but if he is at Cornell I assume he is no dummy (through his vaccine hesitancy doesn’t exactly inspire confidence).

Edited by BAC

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I hear you guys and I don't disagree.  Decatur wanted to be a Buckeye. Not positive that works in reverse?  Romero was a three sport athlete in HS and only wrestled 'in' season. College was his first year round wrestling. He's gotten better every year since. Hoffman and Singletary(round of 16) had good RSF seasons but Kollin then Jordan was in someone's way and Traub had a hot season, then Orndorff shows up. I understand being excited about Ech, but I believe we all thought it would be uphill for him for a bit. Rocky just hasn't been good enough and he was a NQ and a R12.  Hopefully Shumate and Feldman find their way, Karch recovers, Smith, Romero, Jordan and Sasso continue upward and I'd love to see D'Emilio and Malik get hot when it matters.

Buckeyes since 2015
Champions
Third
Runner Up
Runner Up
Runner Up
Cancelled
Covid Nine.

Signed: Hopeless in Columbus

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6 hours ago, BAC said:

I’m not sure what you mean by “normal school.” You mean not PSU? Or you mean a non-D1 wrestling school? I assume the latter, because obviously redshirts exist and are prevalent at every D1 wrestling school (other than Ivies).  And yes, as in all schools with redshirts, their eligibility year is one year behind their school year, but I am not sure of your point here.

I do disagree there is any reason to doubt Beard’s potential for future development. If anything he seems to be on an upswing lately, pinning the tOSU kid that beat him previously, and finishing as an AA with multiple top-10 wins at NCAAs.

 


What is your basis for saying that Beard is not meeting the PSU coaches’ expectations? I have not heard nor read anything like that. To the contrary I would expect they are ecstatic to have a guy with four years of eligibility remaining finish as an AA in his first year as a starter. Just because PSU has been fortunate enough to have a few freshman champs in the the last several years, that is exceedingly rare and doesn’t mean that is suddenly the minimum standard.

By "normal," I mean a school that doesn't grayshirt a significant portion of their lineup.  In terms of Beard, yes he finished 7th and has 4 years of eligibility, but the coaches could be thinking that they can do better, since he has been in the room for 3 years already. 197 is a weight that PSU likely expects better than 7th place points.  They did the same thing to Nevillls..There's nothing wrong with PSU's mentality-they bring in the best and let those that can cut it stick around-the rest just transfer out.  

Quote

Also disagree PSU is “recruiting over” it’s guys, at least not in a way that is any different from any other top school. No one is guaranteed their spot, but name a school where anyone is. I’m sure PSU wants depth at every weight, where the second string guy is pushing the first stringer — but again, how is that different from any other school, other than the fact that PSU has had more success than most in attracting top talent? I’m aware of no instance in which PSU went out to actively try to replace a returning AA. Examples?

Earlier in the thread you mentioned Nevills, but there is no indication that Cael was dissatisfied with Nevills and tried to “recruit over” him. They didn’t recruit HWT at all on the high school level after landing Seth. When Kerk unexpectedly came on the market for his 4th transfer or whatever it was and expressed interest in PSU, I’m sure PSU was happy to take him, as any other school would have been, but I am not aware of any evidence at all that PSU was dissatisfied with Nevills and hunting for an upgrade. Are you? Do you think PSU should have said “No Greg, do NOT transfer here, we promised the spot to Nevills”, failing which they would be guilty of “recruiting over” Nevills? I can’t imagine there is a D1 program in the country that would turn down Kerk if he wanted to go there. 
 

I think it's great that Cael brings in guys to challenge his starters.  Being a low placing AA isn't good enough, and if the opportunity is there, Cael absolutely should try to bring in somebody better and recruit over his athletes.  He doesn't owe anything to his athletes who started for him and underperformed.  It's the "you only deserve what you earn" mentality.  I think the recruits who commit to PSU understand what is expected of them performance wise, and if they fail to achieve those expectations, there's nothing to guarantee that they will start in the future. If the opportunity is there to get an athlete like Kerk or Dean to upgrade over a recruit that hasn't met their standard, they go for it.  

Quote

I don’t have any evidence that Dean is even considering PSU at all, much less any information about aid even if he were. Right now it’s all just the rumor mill as far as I can tell.

I also don’t know how tightly PSU’s 9.9 are currently allocated. But my guess is pretty  tight. It’s also my guess that PSU would not have much to free up, and probably wouldn’t go out of its way to pull athletic money from someone else to accommodate Dean, who would be a nice addition but doesn’t fill a void. I won’t speculate on his eligibility for an academic scholarship but if he is at Cornell I assume he is no dummy (through his vaccine hesitancy doesn’t exactly inspire confidence).

I don't think the 9.9 is really much of an issue for PSU, tOSU, Iowa, etc.  The top schools find ways to get big time transfers.  I don't think scholarships are guaranteed year to year in wrestling, so I'm sure there is some moving of athletic scholarship money around too, but there are other sources. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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12 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

By "normal," I mean a school that doesn't grayshirt a significant portion of their lineup.  In terms of Beard, yes he finished 7th and has 4 years of eligibility, but the coaches could be thinking that they can do better, since he has been in the room for 3 years already. 197 is a weight that PSU likely expects better than 7th place points.  They did the same thing to Nevillls..There's nothing wrong with PSU's mentality-they bring in the best and let those that can cut it stick around-the rest just transfer out.  

I think it's great that Cael brings in guys to challenge his starters.  Being a low placing AA isn't good enough, and if the opportunity is there, Cael absolutely should try to bring in somebody better and recruit over his athletes.  He doesn't owe anything to his athletes who started for him and underperformed.  It's the "you only deserve what you earn" mentality.  I think the recruits who commit to PSU understand what is expected of them performance wise, and if they fail to achieve those expectations, there's nothing to guarantee that they will start in the future. If the opportunity is there to get an athlete like Kerk or Dean to upgrade over a recruit that hasn't met their standard, they go for it.  

I don't think the 9.9 is really much of an issue for PSU, tOSU, Iowa, etc.  The top schools find ways to get big time transfers.  I don't think scholarships are guaranteed year to year in wrestling, so I'm sure there is some moving of athletic scholarship money around too, but there are other sources. 


I am not aware of any facts to suggest that PSU greyshirts a “significant portion of their lineup,” or is so dissatisfied with the AA finish of a freshman with 4 years remaining that they are going to hunt for a replacement. If you know of any I would be curious to hear.

I do agree it is great that Cael is willing to bring in top guys to push his starters, and is not going to say “no” to a top transfer who wants to come. But I don’t think he is unique or even unusual in that regard, or is any more willing than other schools to allow incoming recruits and transfers displace the existing starter. That strikes me as pretty much the same across the board in D1 wrestling. PSU just attracts a higher caliber of recruits and transfers than most schools.

Edited by BAC

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