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Max Dean to Penn State?

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Besides the "578,000 one-off, worst case scenarios" we really do not know the long term effects yet.    The wrestling community is particularly vulnerable. The way teams train and many traditional competitions (particulalry youth events) are indoors and often in very crowded situations - packed gyms. It is difficult to change behavior and it seems the community has many who are resistant to science and vaccines.  I have not studied it and it may just what appears on social media and anecdotals reports.   Wrestling community should be leading the charge for everyone to get vaccinated. 

Edited by Elevator

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39 minutes ago, klehner said:

Great.  Let's isolate those OTHER DEMOGRAPHICS completely from that CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC, so that there is no possibility of spread.  How's that gonna work?

Then take this s*** to some other non-wrestling forum, and use ALL CAPS to your heart's content.

My bad...I'll only comment and express opinions you agree with.  And make sure I only type and use grammar/punctuation/etc. according to your wants and needs.

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5 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Besides the "578,000 one-off, worst case scenarios" we really do not know the long term effects yet.    The wrestling community is particularly vulnerable. The way teams train and many traditional competitions (particulalry youth events) are indoors and often in very crowded situations - packed gyms. It is difficult to change behavior and it seems the community has many who are resistant to science and vaccines.  I have not studied it and it may just what appears on social media and anecdotals reports.   Wrestling community should be leading the charge for everyone to get vaccinated. 

So how long do we need to wait to know "long term effects"?  What is the magic number, or at what point do we stop with the over the top regulations?  When do we take into account all the tournaments, practices, packed indoor activities in gyms, etc. that have already happened before we can say one way or the other?  Do people still need to get vaccinated if they already had Covid?  If so, why?  How much data is needed before we can prove that the young should not have to have their opportunities taken away from them?  When does the study happen comparing colleges that shut down their athletics versus those that didn't take those opportunities away?

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Or we can keep repeating the same things over and over again....

EDIT to add this little tidbit.  I've been to a couple different countries in the past few months.  One thing I noticed is how much different the tone is amongst their citizens about this whole thing.  Not that everyone completely agrees with one another on this or that, but a completely different tone.  Basically the tone being we're all in this together and gotta work through this together, even if we don't completely agree.  I've had many conversations with those citizens about that, and when I mention how things are over here, they laugh and tell me about how they hear about it all the time.  What makes it really interesting is that its two countries with not nearly the resources we have here, but are doing much better.   What does that tell us???

 

And now....back to the wrestling.

Edited by Lurker

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52 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So how long do we need to wait to know "long term effects"?  What is the magic number, or at what point do we stop with the over the top regulations?  When do we take into account all the tournaments, practices, packed indoor activities in gyms, etc. that have already happened before we can say one way or the other?  Do people still need to get vaccinated if they already had Covid?  If so, why?  How much data is needed before we can prove that the young should not have to have their opportunities taken away from them?  When does the study happen comparing colleges that shut down their athletics versus those that didn't take those opportunities away?

Really smart people with expertise have analyzed these issues and drive both public policy and institutional decisions on managing these risks.  Standing in the way of executing a coherent and successful national policy to combat a global pandemic are fools that think they know better and a sad political culture of selfish citizenshp "rights" with no responsibility to the community and the country.  The success of the U.S. - and all countries - depends not just on respect for individual rights, but on respect and fidelity to our responsibilities to eachother.  Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for the country.  Wear a mask, get vaccinated, and keep your non-expert doubts off of social media - three things that can be done! 

Edited by Elevator

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1 minute ago, Elevator said:

Really smart people with expertise have analyzed these issues and drive both public policy and institutional decisions on managing these risks.  Standing in the way of executing a coherent and successful national policy to combat a global pandemic are fools that think they know better and a sad political culture of selfish citizenshp "rights" with no responsibility to the community and the country.  The success of the U.S. - and all countries - depends not just on respect for individual rights, but on respect and fidelity of our responsibilities to eachother.  Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for the country.  Wear a mask, get vaccinated, and keep your non-expert doubts off of social media - three things that can be done! 

Couldn't agree more that our biggest problem with this thing is social media experts who see a headline, take it as gospel, then spread it as far and wide as they can as a tool to attack the "other side".  If there were no social media, this pandemic would look completely different here in the US.

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3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Or we can keep repeating the same things over and over again....

The whole point is we are in a holding pattern in the Ivies and if they can’t set a clear path forward...there will be no winter sports... it will only take a positive or 2 to have the excuse to dump it again.....

I get it...the athletes are being tested 3 times a week and practicing on campus. But that’s it...

By some of the thoughts on this thread Max Dean did the right thing jumping off the sinking Ivy League ship.

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2 minutes ago, 9insoft said:

The whole point is we are in a holding pattern in the Ivies and if they can’t set a clear path forward...there will be no winter sports... it will only take a positive or 2 to have the excuse to dump it again.....

I get it...the athletes are being tested 3 times a week and practicing on campus. But that’s it...

By some of the thoughts on this thread Max Dean did the right thing jumping off the sinking Ivy League ship.

It kinda seems the point has drifted from what is going on with the Ivies to the more usual "I know more about this virus than you".

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I am a huge anti-social media person who can't stand those that spread misinformation and lies...with the MSM being the biggest spreader of B.S.  Anyway, the real root cause of the issues in the US in regards to this virus is our political system and the division it has caused starting well before the big orange guy was in office.  We in the US love to take tragedies and/or things like a pandemics, and turn it all political...which in the case of Covid, turned would-be scientific experts into political pawns and political bi-partisian players.  It also tends to make people argue because they have opinions that differ than others.  I agree with freedoms and liberties and for the greater good...what I don't agree with is taking freedoms and liberties away for what isn't the great good, but rather a very very small portion of the whole (not meant to be mean or insensitive).  We should be making policies and regulations for the unfortunate minority that this effects very bad while trying to maintain the majorities freedoms and liberties.  Do I need to "leave that up to the scientist and experts" to hold or not hold that opinion...no I don't.  Do I need a "scientist" or "expert" to do my own research and look at the data myself and come to opinions on it...no I don't.  I follow the stupid zero common sense mask regulations...I stayed away from the vulnerable population before I had it AND got vaccinated.  But that doesn't mean I keep my mouth shut and not call out the completely idiotic policies that make zero scientific or common sense and is all done for show.  If people disagree with my opinion or can demonstrate to me why my thoughts are wrong and not common sense then I welcome that; however, what I won't do is have people tell me to just shut up and not have an opinion and not ask questions, because they choose to just sit back, do no thinking or formulate any of their own thoughts, and let the tv and "experts"/politicians tell them how to think, feel, and live.

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It kinda seems the point has drifted from what is going on with the Ivies to the more usual "I know more about this virus than you".

No...YOU turned it into that...it was about how some think the ivies were correct and others thought they weren't.  And because you disagree with mine or others opinions doesn't turn it into something it isn't just because saying so is easier than for you to argue any of your opinions.

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12 minutes ago, dman115 said:

No...YOU turned it into that...it was about how some think the ivies were correct and others thought they weren't.  And because you disagree with mine or others opinions doesn't turn it into something it isn't just because saying so is easier than for you to argue any of your opinions.

How did I turn it into that?  I read a page and half of virus arguing, the exact same arguments I've been reading here for months, that didn't relate to Cornell at all, but rather people who believe their stupid polices vs people who believe in the policies.  My only comment has been about the arguing, and about how it is obvious why were are in worse shape with this thing than countries with not nearly the resources. 

I've expressed my opinion on here several times, have had a number of conversations with you in fact sharing our opinions.  I just stopped awhile ago because there's no sense in typing/reading the same things over and over again.  You know this because we've had plenty of conversation about it , in which you have responded to me directly, several times.  But I guess it's just "easier" to try to imply I'm trying to manipulate the conversation.  

In other words, proving my point.  Taking anything one can, even if its fabricated, to make one look 'right'

Edited by Lurker

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

How did I turn it into that?  I read a page and half of virus arguing, the exact same arguments I've been reading here for months, that didn't relate to Cornell at all, but rather people who believe their stupid polices vs people who believe in the policies.  My only comment has been about the arguing, and about how it is obvious why were are in worse shape with this thing than countries with not nearly the resources. 

I've expressed my opinion on here several times, have had a number of conversations with you in fact sharing our opinions.  I just stopped awhile ago because there's no sense in typing/reading the same things over and over again.  You know this because we've had plenty of conversation about it , in which you have responded to me directly, several times.  But I guess it's just "easier" to try to imply I'm trying to manipulate the conversation.  

In other words, proving my point.  Taking anything one can, even if its fabricated, to make one look 'right'

Well...I guess I really can't argue any of your points here...guilty as charged.  I guess I am just passionate about the subject and have low tolerance for no common sense (I am not claiming that about you) and can't keep my thoughts to myself.  While I think you and I have very different opinions about the topic I still respect you (well as much as one can on an internet message board) and I apologize if my passionate posts come off as rude and personal.  Other than commenting on my over-zealous use of caps you have never made it personal, unlike others on here who can't stand it when others have an opinion that is different than theirs, and in turn can't argue or express their points other than spewing emotional talking points.

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1 minute ago, dman115 said:

Well...I guess I really can't argue any of your points here...guilty as charged.  I guess I am just passionate about the subject and have low tolerance for no common sense (I am not claiming that about you) and can't keep my thoughts to myself.  While I think you and I have very different opinions about the topic I still respect you (well as much as one can on an internet message board) and I apologize if my passionate posts come off as rude and personal.  Other than commenting on my over-zealous use of caps you have never made it personal, unlike others on here who can't stand it when others have an opinion that is different than theirs, and in turn can't argue or express their points other than spewing emotional talking points.

To be honest, even though this virus has hit me (in terms of family/people close to me) a bit rough, my opinions (on the actual virus itself and response to it) probably don't differ as much as you think.  Some, but probably not as much as you think.

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29 minutes ago, Lurker said:

To be honest, even though this virus has hit me (in terms of family/people close to me) a bit rough, my opinions (on the actual virus itself and response to it) probably don't differ as much as you think.  Some, but probably not as much as you think.

Sorry it has hit you and your family/friends rough!  Just hate this stupid virus and all it has caused.

As for opinions, I bet you are right.  And I bet the majority of the general public agree on most everything 80% of the time, but let the 20% divide us and cause all the problems.

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

Deaths counted like no other causes of death are counted....not for other virus', ailments, accidents...well, quite frankly like nothing else.  Are flu deaths counted that way...let's see...NOPE.  Are ebola deaths counted like Covid deaths...let's see...NOPE!   Heck you, nor any "expert" can tell us how many of those deaths were solely just because of the virus. 

If I have stage 4 cancer and am in hospice and I get sick (could be from a virus or bacteria) and die, my death gets recorded as I died from cancer...as it should.  But if I test positive for Covid in that scenario...I died of Covid.  Point being, the "experts" can count Covid deaths however they want, but unless they use some consistency in how they count other deaths you can do zero comparisons nor deduce how much more serious something is versus another.

Anyway, good talk...enjoyed you using rational thought and not just a purely emotion response for shock value while not taking into account ALL the OTHER data and FACTS out THERE...oh wait....

You know something?  You don't know what the f*** you are talking about.  You did some "research" (using Google, no doubt), suddenly you know more than all the epidemiologists and statisticians everywhere.  Do you even know what "excess deaths" is?  Do you know how variants arise, and that the more cases (asymptomatic or otherwise) there are, the more likely there is a variant to arise that may be immune to the vaccines, may be more deadly, and may prolong the pandemic?

I'm so sick of your type.

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1 hour ago, 9insoft said:

The whole point is we are in a holding pattern in the Ivies and if they can’t set a clear path forward...there will be no winter sports... it will only take a positive or 2 to have the excuse to dump it again.....

I get it...the athletes are being tested 3 times a week and practicing on campus. But that’s it...

By some of the thoughts on this thread Max Dean did the right thing jumping off the sinking Ivy League ship.

They aren't in a f***ing holding pattern:  they are slowly opening up sports as they deem safe.  Some teams are competing now.

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13 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Sorry it has hit you and your family/friends rough!  Just hate this stupid virus and all it has caused.

As for opinions, I bet you are right.  And I bet the majority of the general public agree on most everything 80% of the time, but let the 20% divide us and cause all the problems.

Personally I don't think its that its the 80/20 thing you mention.  I believe the biggest thing, just based on observation, is the extreme.  Everyone is going to have a 'side' and I think it is closer to a 50/50 split on 'sides'.  But I think the issue is if you agree with one thing on one side, the feeling is you have to agree with everything.  An example: talking to one of my friends a little after the election.  He is on the team from the side that supports Trump to the extreme, that Trump can do no wrong.  Without getting into all of my politics, I was explaining to him that there were a lot of things about Trump I was in favor of, and a lot of things I was not.  He was extremely perplexed, flat out saying you are either all in or all out.  No, no that's not the case at all.  And I feel like that is a very heavy tone in our country, all in or all out, with no compromise.  Without compromise you get arguments,  And when you have two sides who refuse to try to see and understand the other sides view points, with the knowledge you don't have to agree with someone to understand where they're coming from, you get manufactured arguments.  Because it's turned into nobody cares to open their eyes and try to understand and maybe learn something new....the only thing they're interested in is winning the argument.  

My opinion is that the above is the main reason the United States is where we are with this thing.  We should be the model of what to do to to work together to fight this thing.....  But instead, for reasons that fall at the blame of both sides, we do the opposite of what we should do and have been paying the price for it.  

Edited by Lurker

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23 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Personally I don't think its that its the 80/20 thing you mention.  I believe the biggest thing, just based on observation, is the extreme.  Everyone is going to have a 'side' and I think it is closer to a 50/50 split on 'sides'.  But I think the issue is if you agree with one thing on one side, the feeling is you have to agree with everything.  An example: talking to one of my friends a little after the election.  He is on the team from the side that supports Trump to the extreme, that Trump can do no wrong.  Without getting into all of my politics, I was explaining to him that there were a lot of things about Trump I was in favor of, and a lot of things I was not.  He was extremely perplexed, flat out saying you are either all in or all out.  No, no that's not the case at all.  And I feel like that is a very heavy tone in our country, all in or all out, with no compromise.  Without compromise you get arguments,  And when you have two sides who refuse to try to see and understand the other sides view points, with the knowledge you don't have to agree with someone to understand where they're coming from, you get manufactured arguments.  Because it's turned into nobody cares to open their eyes and try to understand and maybe learn something new....the only thing they're interested in is winning the argument.  

My opinion is that the above is the main reason the United States is where we are with this thing.  We should be the model of what to do to to work together to fight this thing.....  But instead, for reasons that fall at the blame of both sides, we do the opposite of what we should do and have been paying the price for it.  

I couldn't agree more Lurker!!  I too can't stand the all in or all out thing.  One of my best friends probably leans more one way than me politically, but he is still my best friend as we have mutual respect and listen to each other, but at the end if we still disagree with just say so and move on. 

And spot on about people not listening and won't try to understand in order to "win" the argument...I heard a speaker at a leadership conference say the US has a close minded problem versus all the other bad things people and countries tend to say about us (some which may be true)...he was from the Phillipines...very interesting/cool guy.

Anyway, I am guilty of liking the debate...as well as tending to take things off topic...so is Dean truly going to Penn St.??  LOL

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1 minute ago, dman115 said:

I couldn't agree more Lurker!!  I too can't stand the all in or all out thing.  One of my best friends probably leans more one way than me politically, but he is still my best friend as we have mutual respect and listen to each other, but at the end if we still disagree with just say so and move on. 

And spot on about people not listening and won't try to understand in order to "win" the argument...I heard a speaker at a leadership conference say the US has a close minded problem versus all the other bad things people and countries tend to say about us (some which may be true)...he was from the Phillipines...very interesting/cool guy.

Anyway, I am guilty of liking the debate...as well as tending to take things off topic...so is Dean truly going to Penn St.??  LOL

According to the Dake interview,  kinda sounding like one of the Michigan schools is top of the list.

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41 minutes ago, klehner said:

You know something?  You don't know what the f*** you are talking about.  You did some "research" (using Google, no doubt), suddenly you know more than all the epidemiologists and statisticians everywhere.  Do you even know what "excess deaths" is?  Do you know how variants arise, and that the more cases (asymptomatic or otherwise) there are, the more likely there is a variant to arise that may be immune to the vaccines, may be more deadly, and may prolong the pandemic?

I'm so sick of your type.

So attack me personally versus answer any of the questions??  Anyway, you honestly think ALL the epidemiologists and statisticians believe the same thing and interpret the data exactly the same way?  You feel we should listen to whomever the powers that be say we should listen to and no one else?  Do you think the epidemiologists that you tend to agree with are always right and if another epidemiologist interprets the data and statistics differently they are wrong?  Or do you just listen and agree with only "your type" versus "my type"?  I truly would like to know what "my type" is anyway??

Moving on...in the spirit of Lurker, I am willing to listen to your argument and hear how you defend it...and will do so with full intent of trying to learn...if you are willing?

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5 minutes ago, Lurker said:

According to the Dake interview,  kinda sounding like one of the Michigan schools is top of the list.

That would be interesting...wonder where he would fit in Michigan's line-up if they bring everyone back?  He obviously would fit nicely on the Spartan's along side Caffey but if he is looking for team success the Wolverines would be the better choice obviously.

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59 minutes ago, klehner said:

You know something?  You don't know what the f*** you are talking about.  You did some "research" (using Google, no doubt), suddenly you know more than all the epidemiologists and statisticians everywhere.  Do you even know what "excess deaths" is?  Do you know how variants arise, and that the more cases (asymptomatic or otherwise) there are, the more likely there is a variant to arise that may be immune to the vaccines, may be more deadly, and may prolong the pandemic?

I'm so sick of your type.

Dawg, hate to break it to you but yours is not the only viewpoint on or opinion of the world.

You need to take a chill pill and take that venom some place else...

 

Edited by Drew87

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48 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Dawg, hate to break it to you but yours is not the only viewpoint on or opinion of the world.

You need to take a chill pill and take that venom some place else...

 

People are entitled to their viewpoints and opinions.  They are not entitled to their own facts.

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