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How 65KG Can Still Go to Tokyo

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36 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

A direct quote taken out of context is a twist of words.  You're smart enough to know this, though.  How about you quit being a ponce now, so I can.  Sucks your boy choked.  Sorry for that.  I do hope you sleep well tonight, love.

67douche---You need a refund from that community college if you define the run JO just went on in OTTs and Last Chance, all trying to clean up the mess lame-zain left the rest of the field a choke.  I do notice you like to use that word; I suspect it is driven by the amount of time you spend choking your own chiken.

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43 minutes ago, Crash said:

67douche---You need a refund from that community college if you define the run JO just went on in OTTs and Last Chance, all trying to clean up the mess lame-zain left the rest of the field a choke.  I do notice you like to use that word; I suspect it is driven by the amount of time you spend choking your own chiken.

Did he qualify?  No.  He choked.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

That’s the country you want to live in?

I am a proud American, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the way USA Wrestling selects our reps for Worlds and the Olympics.  If we had a selection process by committee (with wrestle-offs, results from national championships, international competitions, and past Worlds/Olympics all playing a factor) like Russia, I think we would have better results at World and the Olympics than we do presently.  I think having one Trials tournament determine our rep for the Olympics is not the best way to pick our Olympic teams.  

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56 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

I am a proud American, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the way USA Wrestling selects our reps for Worlds and the Olympics.  If we had a selection process by committee (with wrestle-offs, results from national championships, international competitions, and past Worlds/Olympics all playing a factor) like Russia, I think we would have better results at World and the Olympics than we do presently.  I think having one Trials tournament determine our rep for the Olympics is not the best way to pick our Olympic teams.  

I would agree that our selection process probably hurts us at times.  But it also helps us at times.

But selection by committee.... telling Sadulaev, hey you don't have to compete in Russian Nationals, you don't have to do these things, you are on the team, is telling everyone else in that weight class you don't have the right to compete for a spot on our team.

Our selection process is not a two day event.  It is a process, with the culminating event being the OTT or Final X.  It is a process where you have to earn stripes, with a variety of different options to do so, to get in.  And once you're in....go get it.  If you have proven yourself by winning a world medal in the past year, you get to skip ahead of the field. Stripping away that process and those the opportunity to earn that right is precisely anti-American.  Like I said, yes it can hurt us in the medal count, but its the American way.  And at times, it helps us too.  For example: you would have told the #9 seed, listen....let's be real here.  You have very little freestyle experience in the couple years you've been in college...did I mention you're still in college?  You don't have any international experience.....hell, did I mention you don't even have a passport?  We got Kyle Dake here, we got David Taylor here, we got some other guys as well.  You go ahead and take a seat on this one, we'll figure it out.  

EDIT: to say, I wouldn't be against some adjustments to the selection process, whereby international results aquire you some sort of 'credit' (however that may turn out) when it came to the trials, but we have to leave them the opportunity to earn it against each other on the mat.  I mean if we're talking about representing America, we have to keep it American.

Edited by Lurker

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1 hour ago, maligned said:

Sidenote..i dont get why Andreu Ortega didnt wrestle for bronze at 57. If Japan pulls out of the olympics, he's in.

Not to be captain obvious, but you do realize that if Japan pulls out of the Olympics then there are no Olympics for anyone...

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14 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Not to be captain obvious, but you do realize that if Japan pulls out of the Olympics then there are no Olympics for anyone...

if so will folks on here give Zain a break?  ;)

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I am certain JO had no plans to make weight on day 2. He didn't miss weight or get injured. Missing weight implies an attempt to make it. He entered the event with a plan to try to qualify the weight on day 1, and everything he did was in service of that goal. If he had made the finals, he would not have competed on day 2 any more than he did in the bronze match.

This happened a lot in that event. There were no bronze matches at 57, no medal matches at all at 65, no gold match at 86, one bronze match at 97, and no gold match at 125.

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24 minutes ago, IronChef said:

I am certain JO had no plans to make weight on day 2. He didn't miss weight or get injured. Missing weight implies an attempt to make it. He entered the event with a plan to try to qualify the weight on day 1, and everything he did was in service of that goal. If he had made the finals, he would not have competed on day 2 any more than he did in the bronze match.

This happened a lot in that event. There were no bronze matches at 57, no medal matches at all at 65, no gold match at 86, one bronze match at 97, and no gold match at 125.

There was only one actual gold match in the 12 men's weight classes (2 if you count Mongolia wrestling one period vs. Takahashi).

But teams know how it works and realize that backfilling is a real thing with Covid dropouts from national teams and missed drug tests on the way--that's why 77% of the bronze contestants showed up and only 1 of 24 matches had a double forfeit (Takahashi's bracket, where Japan obviously won't drop out of the Olympics).

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On 5/6/2021 at 10:27 PM, ShakaAloha said:

I am a proud American, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the way USA Wrestling selects our reps for Worlds and the Olympics.  If we had a selection process by committee (with wrestle-offs, results from national championships, international competitions, and past Worlds/Olympics all playing a factor) like Russia, I think we would have better results at World and the Olympics than we do presently.  I think having one Trials tournament determine our rep for the Olympics is not the best way to pick our Olympic teams.  

Until Snyder was picked over Cox, or Burroughs over Dake because of their greater international record, or a Hawkeye if the Brands and Gable are on the board, or a PSU wrestler if Cael is on the jury, then you would be up in umbrage.  Selective judgments will always be followed by uproar when the weight is competitive.  Our sport always says settle it on the mat.  You want Zain out - beat him in Freestyle.  Seems pretty straightforward.  Just hard to do  

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1 hour ago, TFBJR said:

Until Snyder was picked over Cox, or Burroughs over Dake because of their greater international record, or a Hawkeye if the Brands and Gable are on the board, or a PSU wrestler if Cael is on the jury, then you would be up in umbrage.  Selective judgments will always be followed by uproar when the weight is competitive.  Our sport always says settle it on the mat.  You want Zain out - beat him in Freestyle.  Seems pretty straightforward.  Just hard to do  

This has nothing to do with any single wrestler such as Zain.  Our teams have been under-performing at the Olympics for years now.  At the last Olympics (2016), we had 1 gold and 1 bronze in MFS, no medals in Greco, and 1 gold in WFS.  Two Olympics ago (2012), we had 2 gold and 2 bronze in MFS, no medals in Greco, and 1 bronze in WFS.  Hate to be a pessimist, but it could be worse in 2021.

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11 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

This has nothing to do with any single wrestler such as Zain.  Our teams have been under-performing at the Olympics for years now.  At the last Olympics (2016), we had 1 gold and 1 bronze in MFS, no medals in Greco, and 1 gold in WFS.  Two Olympics ago (2012), we had 2 gold and 2 bronze in MFS, no medals in Greco, and 1 bronze in WFS.  Hate to be a pessimist, but it could be worse in 2021.

I anticipate 2 medals this year from the men - 74 and 97. Depending on draws and upsets I would be disappointed, but certainly not shocked, if the US men came home with one or zero medals. They could just as well come home with multiple golds and five total medals from MFS but that is highly unlikely. The women will be the ones bringing home the hardware.

Edited by bnwtwg
This includes greco. It's a footnote, just like Greco in the US currently :(

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1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

I anticipate 2 medals this year from the men - 74 and 97. Depending on draws and upsets I would be disappointed, but certainly not shocked, if the US men came home with one or zero medals. They could just as well come home with multiple golds and five total medals from MFS but that is highly unlikely. The women will be the ones bringing home the hardware.

I agree with your prediction of 2 MFS medals.  I think they come from 74 and 125.  86 and 97 are also possible, but I am not as high on them as most.  

We will get zero from Greco.  If by some miracle we do get a Greco medal, it will be at 97 or 87.  

For WFS, I only feel good about 68 and 53.  We have a lot of big names on this team, but I think everyone on here is underestimating Japan and putting too much into the past accomplishments of some of the WFS reps. 

I think we get between 4 to 6 medals total at the Olympics out of this group.  

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3 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

For WFS, I only feel good about 68 and 53.  We have a lot of big names on this team, but I think everyone on here is underestimating Japan and putting too much into the past accomplishments of some of the WFS reps. 

I expect 3-5 WFS medals, they just may not be the color we hope for. I don't underestimate Japan one bit - they brought home 4 medals and a 5th at 2019 worlds. They are the bully on the block and they have home field advantage to boot.

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2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I expect 3-5 WFS medals, they just may not be the color we hope for. I don't underestimate Japan one bit - they brought home 4 medals and a 5th at 2019 worlds. They are the bully on the block and they have home field advantage to boot.

I see what you are saying, but we've won 1 medal in WFS at both the 2016 and 2012 Olympics.  Getting to 3 medals, let alone 4 or 5 would be a huge jump.  

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The issues needed to improve our medal standing has nothing to do with the selection process. Has our selection process “missed it” so many times that if we changed it, we’d be #1 in the world instead of 2/3?  Of course not. Sure, here or there there’s a guy that wins the weight, but probably not the best guy against the world. But he EARNED IT. You know who else earned it, the Jamil Kelley’s and J’den Cox’ and Kendall Cross’...who probably don’t get selected if our process isn’t settled on the mat between two athletes. 

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22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I can’t remember, the year Zain lost to Argentina, was that the year Oliver was suspended?  Or did he just get beat out?

JO got beat out in two straight at the WTT 7-6 in both matches to Zain for the best of three finals.  Zain then went on to face Johnny D at Final X.

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6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I can’t remember, the year Zain lost to Argentina, was that the year Oliver was suspended?  Or did he just get beat out?

And Yianni beat Destribats (the Argentinian) the week before Zain got pinned by him.  

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