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2 hours ago, klehner said:

Help me out here.  What's the thinking a recruit goes through that has them turning down Cornell?  "Hmm, they have a huge endowment that provides lots of need-based financial aid, I can take a cheap gap year and train with their guys if I want, and I come out with an Ivy League degree.  Nah, I'll go to <insert_state_school> instead."

They’ve recently had a number of guys taking gap years with minimal progress to a degree. Didn’t Dean just transfer out as a 5th year sophomore? Maybe something is up with the admin there where they are going to be less likely to put up with stuff like that. 
 

If Stanford can get similar admission standards leeway as Cornell, I have zero doubt Koll will be extremely successful there. Maybe even moreso than he has been at Cornell because everything that made the Cornell pitch good to recruits is even better at Stanford. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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57 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

you also said this ^^

which is demonstrably false. 

If Koll can get the admission standards at Stanford equal to what he has at Cornell, everything about the Stanford job is better. He is one the best coaches in the country-for him, this could be like Cael’s move from ISU to PSU (without the 10 team titles). 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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5 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

If Koll can get the admission standards at Stanford equal to what he has at Cornell, everything about the Stanford job is better. He is one the best coaches in the country-for him, this could be like Cael’s move from ISU to PSU (without the 10 team titles). 

Why stop there, go for Iowa standards, he can then promise the AD and Univ admin a team national title.  ;_;

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5 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

Just talked about Cornell's recruiting situation on my show this week. It is by far the cushiest, easiest pitch. Best recruiting situation on earth.

Starts at 51:00 minute mark https://rokfin.com/stream/5836/The-First-Word-52421

I'm guessing something along the lines of "get into an Ivy League school without needing Ivy League academic credentials and most likely getting a lot of financial aid to do so"?

Edited by 1032004

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4 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Sure, here are a few off the top of my head.

1) They don't qualify for need-based financial aid.

2) They don't like the staff.

3) Their friends are elsewhere

4) They don't like the weather

5) They don't like the team

6) They are religious nuts who want to do what their coach tells them to do and beat the holy h3ll out of people.

7) They don't like the weather

8) They can only get admitted to the ag school, but they want to major in something not offered there.

9) They prefer a different team culture.

10) They want diversity on the team they are a part of.

 

 

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the original thesis:

"The inability to provide athletic scholarships and only 4 consecutive years of eligibility makes it difficult for Cornell to field as good of a team every year as Koll is capable of"

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3 hours ago, Stl said:

It is demonstrably false that not having athletic scholarships makes recruiting even marginally more difficult? I don't think so

Sorry, this just demonstrates a lack of understanding for how Ivies handle athletics.  Ivies are all so well endowed, they just funnel everything through regular financial aid. They have enough leeway to do whatever they want with whomever they want.

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

They’ve recently had a number of guys taking gap years with minimal progress to a degree. Didn’t Dean just transfer out as a 5th year sophomore? Maybe something is up with the admin there where they are going to be less likely to put up with stuff like that. 
 

If Stanford can get similar admission standards leeway as Cornell, I have zero doubt Koll will be extremely successful there. Maybe even moreso than he has been at Cornell because everything that made the Cornell pitch good to recruits is even better at Stanford. 

They likely can’t for a number of reasons.  Cornell is the least rigorous Ivy, widely accepted, Stanford is as difficult to get into as Harvard and Princeton.  The bar is much higher to go to Stanford, on the order of you need to at least smell like you could be a Senator one day to go to Stanford.  This is only 1/4 an exaggeration. 

My biggest hesitation though if I were Rob Koll is that, as far as I know, the AD who tried to assassinate 11 teams in the dirtiest way possible has yet to leave or be dismissed.  How do you convince guys who are above walk-on level to go to that program if you still have that conflict incumbent with the team and the position?

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1 hour ago, klehner said:

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the original thesis:

"The inability to provide athletic scholarships and only 4 consecutive years of eligibility makes it difficult for Cornell to field as good of a team every year as Koll is capable of"

I was just helping you out.  There are plenty of reasons to attend Cornell and plenty of reasons not to attend Cornell.

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8 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Sorry, this just demonstrates a lack of understanding for how Ivies handle athletics.  Ivies are all so well endowed, they just funnel everything through regular financial aid. They have enough leeway to do whatever they want with whomever they want.

It's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.  There is quite a bit more oversight than you seem to think about where financial aid dollars get spent, at least at Cornell for which I can speak.  This may not be the case at schools like Princeton, Harvard, and Yale that have a lot more money/student to throw around.

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Just now, cu155 said:

It's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.  There is quite a bit more oversight than you seem to think about where financial aid dollars get spent, at least at Cornell for which I can speak.  This may not be the case at schools like Princeton, Harvard, and Yale that have a lot more money/student to throw around.

You’re right, but on a team like Cornell where a good number of the kids are paying full boat no matter what, you’re not talking about needing to find money for every single one of the guys, and bag on Cornell though I may, they are still a top 20 national endowment.

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6 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

They likely can’t for a number of reasons.  Cornell is the least rigorous Ivy, widely accepted, Stanford is as difficult to get into as Harvard and Princeton.  The bar is much higher to go to Stanford, on the order of you need to at least smell like you could be a Senator one day to go to Stanford.  This is only 1/4 an exaggeration. 

My biggest hesitation though if I were Rob Koll is that, as far as I know, the AD who tried to assassinate 11 teams in the dirtiest way possible has yet to leave or be dismissed.  How do you convince guys who are above walk-on level to go to that program if you still have that conflict incumbent with the team and the position?

While you're on the topic if an athlete is highly recruitable it is not going to be harder for them to get into Stanford than it would be to get into Cornell or to other Ivy League schools.  If anything if it's a sport Stanford is serious about it might actually be easier as Stanford has shown strong commitment to building national caliber programs in mainstream sports.  Whether Stanford feels that way about wrestling is obviously a different question.  

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4 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

You’re right, but on a team like Cornell where a good number of the kids are paying full boat no matter what, you’re not talking about needing to find money for every single one of the guys, and bag on Cornell though I may, they are still a top 20 national endowment.

If my family had to pay full boat versus I get a scholarship at say Michigan (or Stanford) but I pocket the cash they would have paid...I know which option I'd take.

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42 minutes ago, cu155 said:

If my family had to pay full boat versus I get a scholarship at say Michigan (or Stanford) but I pocket the cash they would have paid...I know which option I'd take.

The education is secondary to the name of the institution.  

That being said, calculus doesn't care if you understand it at an Ivy or a non-Ivy.  

 

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54 minutes ago, cu155 said:

While you're on the topic if an athlete is highly recruitable it is not going to be harder for them to get into Stanford than it would be to get into Cornell or to other Ivy League schools.  If anything if it's a sport Stanford is serious about it might actually be easier as Stanford has shown strong commitment to building national caliber programs in mainstream sports.  Whether Stanford feels that way about wrestling is obviously a different question.  

While on a visit to Stanford with my kid, some of the people in the wrestling program hinted that Jason Welch could not get in, and therefore ended up at NU. Don't know if that's true, but this is a rumor thread.

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13 minutes ago, Major Kong said:

While on a visit to Stanford with my kid, some of the people in the wrestling program hinted that Jason Welch could not get in, and therefore ended up at NU. Don't know if that's true, but this is a rumor thread.

True but on the flip side, Dustin Fox got into Stanford but chose Northwestern. Ryan Lang’s first choice was Cornell, but he didn’t get in and went to Northwestern. 

The point is you can’t look at a single case or two and make a generalization about elite college admissions, even for recruited athletes. How much a coach pushes for you is as important as how much the sport is supported. I know several Harvard wrestlers that barely cracked 1200 SATs, for example. And Harvard isn’t particularly fond of wrestling. 

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29 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

True but on the flip side, Dustin Fox got into Stanford but chose Northwestern. Ryan Lang’s first choice was Cornell, but he didn’t get in and went to Northwestern. 

The point is you can’t look at a single case or two and make a generalization about elite college admissions, even for recruited athletes. How much a coach pushes for you is as important as how much the sport is supported. I know several Harvard wrestlers that barely cracked 1200 SATs, for example. And Harvard isn’t particularly fond of wrestling. 

I think they add 100 points for every state title you win if it is in a top ten wrestling state.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

True but on the flip side, Dustin Fox got into Stanford but chose Northwestern. Ryan Lang’s first choice was Cornell, but he didn’t get in and went to Northwestern. 

The point is you can’t look at a single case or two and make a generalization about elite college admissions, even for recruited athletes. How much a coach pushes for you is as important as how much the sport is supported. I know several Harvard wrestlers that barely cracked 1200 SATs, for example. And Harvard isn’t particularly fond of wrestling. 

Accurate, a coach’s history and relationship with admissions, and other administrators matters a ton too.  If a coach has a bad track record of keeping guys, and or having his recruits behave badly on campus, that leash gets pulled very quickly.

That’s why an a new AD, a new Provost, President etc could matter so much, the ability for the folks at the top of each department to negotiate between departments of a school is a big deal.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

True but on the flip side, Dustin Fox got into Stanford but chose Northwestern. Ryan Lang’s first choice was Cornell, but he didn’t get in and went to Northwestern. 

The point is you can’t look at a single case or two and make a generalization about elite college admissions, even for recruited athletes. How much a coach pushes for you is as important as how much the sport is supported. I know several Harvard wrestlers that barely cracked 1200 SATs, for example. And Harvard isn’t particularly fond of wrestling. 

Harvard’s not particularly fond of any sport except crew, most athletes get in by ticking other boxes relevant to the admissions profile.  It’s hard to out-muscle the child of the president of a foreign country for a slot in the pool of students.

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3 hours ago, cu155 said:

While you're on the topic if an athlete is highly recruitable it is not going to be harder for them to get into Stanford than it would be to get into Cornell or to other Ivy League schools.  If anything if it's a sport Stanford is serious about it might actually be easier as Stanford has shown strong commitment to building national caliber programs in mainstream sports.  Whether Stanford feels that way about wrestling is obviously a different question.  

Yes it is for wrestling. For football/basketball Stanford has a ton of leeway, but that’s not the case at all for wrestling (or any of their other sports). Stanford is significantly more difficult to get into than Cornell in general, not even accounting for the Ag school/Community college thing that Koll has set up. That’s why it’s essential Koll makes sure it’s at least as easy to get in there as it is at Cornell before he moves. If he can do that, he will build a powerhouse there.

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2 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

True but on the flip side, Dustin Fox got into Stanford but chose Northwestern. Ryan Lang’s first choice was Cornell, but he didn’t get in and went to Northwestern. 

The point is you can’t look at a single case or two and make a generalization about elite college admissions, even for recruited athletes. How much a coach pushes for you is as important as how much the sport is supported. I know several Harvard wrestlers that barely cracked 1200 SATs, for example. And Harvard isn’t particularly fond of wrestling. 

How many Harvard wrestling alumni are anti vaxxers or think they can age backwards?  Let’s not act like things haven’t changed significantly for CU admissions since Lang applied. It’s fine to argue that CU isn’t breaking any rules, but we shouldn’t pretend like what they are doing isn’t happening. 

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

How many Harvard wrestling alumni are anti vaxxers or think they can age backwards?  Let’s not act like things haven’t changed significantly for CU admissions since Lang applied. It’s fine to argue that CU isn’t breaking any rules, but we shouldn’t pretend like what they are doing isn’t happening. 

I have no idea what this even means relative to what I wrote. If your point is Harvard is harder to get into than Cornell, thanks for the news flash. If your point is only Cornell has antivaxxer level morons on their teams, have you ever heard of Dr. Simone Gold, a Stanford grad whose career highlight was the Capitol raid and is the most prominent MD antivaxxer in the world? Every good school has its share of idiots. Is wrestling a preferred sport at Cornell? Duh. Which elite school doesn’t have preferred sports?

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39 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I have no idea what this even means relative to what I wrote. If your point is Harvard is harder to get into than Cornell, thanks for the news flash. If your point is only Cornell has antivaxxer level morons on their teams, have you ever heard of Dr. Simone Gold, a Stanford grad whose career highlight was the Capitol raid and is the most prominent MD antivaxxer in the world? Every good school has its share of idiots. Is wrestling a preferred sport at Cornell? Duh. Which elite school doesn’t have preferred sports?

U Chicago. (I know, I know, D3, but you asked)

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