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Will Koll succeed at Stanford?

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11 hours ago, OldGrappler said:

Here's some food for thought, or at least speculation.

Stanford enrollment per class:  about 1,600

Cornell enrollment per class:  about 3,200

Stanford is about 48% male, so you have about 850 males per class. 

Stanford's percentage of students with under 600 SAT scores (per math or verbal section) is about 2-4%, so in the range of 17-34 males per class in that category.  You can be fairly certain that many of those are on the football roster.   

The conclusion is that there is not going to be a lot of academic slack in admissions for wrestlers.  And in a school that's half the size of Cornell, but has to support big time football competitiveness,  admissions slack is harder to come by.  Of course, Stanford's academic standing is higher than Cornell's and it has the attraction of exposure to the west coast (offset by the distance to get there from the prospective recruiting areas).

Having said that, there are enough high achieving wrestlers nationwide to fill up the rosters at the Ivy's,  and Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, UVa and Michigan.  And Koll knows where and who they are. And they know him.  The issue will be getting them to come to Palo Alto instead of staying in the East or Midwest, which is likely closer to home.   But Palo Alto is easier to travel to from a distance than is Cornell, if you're traveling by air.  If he has scholarship money available, it will give him a leg up on the Ivys with respect to students from upper income families. 

 

 

 Everything you say makes sense, but It doesn’t square with this? 

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/how-to-build-a-dynasty

Stanford is the school of choice for the scholar-athlete. In the four classes entering the University from 1994 to 1997, the average freshman male athlete had logged a 3.73 high school GPA and a 1,215 SAT score, according to NCAA statistics. Female freshman athletes during the same period had a 3.87 GPA and a 1,151 SAT score. By comparison, the averages for all Division 1 schools combined were 2.97 and 997 for males and 3.29 and 1,007 for females. At Duke University, another school known for academics as well as athletics, incoming freshman male athletes had a 3.46 GPA and an SAT of 1,103, while females had a 3.51 grade-point and a 1,090 test score.

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Stanford is the most successful college athletics program in the country, winning 25 consecutive NACDA Directors' Cups. Yeah, they can win in wrestling too. 

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6 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Stanford is the most successful college athletics program in the country, winning 25 consecutive NACDA Directors' Cups. Yeah, they can win in wrestling too. 

That's an amazing stat. How do they do it? Are they dominant in a few sports?

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On 5/30/2021 at 9:23 AM, NJDan said:

I have my doubts.

It will be very hard to recruit. First, Stanford's admissions criteria are even harder than Cornell's. He has no history of recruiting Californians. (The one high profile recruit from Cali at Cornell was a huge bust.) And if I am a top guy, do I want to go to school that just cancelled my sport? 

...ahhh, Nashon Garret was a NCAA Champion... not a bust...

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10 hours ago, NJDan said:

That's an amazing stat. How do they do it? Are they dominant in a few sports?

Points are awarded based on each institution’s finish in up to 19 sports - Four of which must be Baseball and Men's Basketball, Women's Basketball and Women's Volleyball. Then the next highest 15 (max.) sports scored for each institution, regardless of gender, will be used in the standings.

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12 hours ago, Maximus Meridius said:

 Everything you say makes sense, but It doesn’t square with this? 

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/how-to-build-a-dynasty

Stanford is the school of choice for the scholar-athlete. In the four classes entering the University from 1994 to 1997, the average freshman male athlete had logged a 3.73 high school GPA and a 1,215 SAT score, according to NCAA statistics. Female freshman athletes during the same period had a 3.87 GPA and a 1,151 SAT score. By comparison, the averages for all Division 1 schools combined were 2.97 and 997 for males and 3.29 and 1,007 for females. At Duke University, another school known for academics as well as athletics, incoming freshman male athletes had a 3.46 GPA and an SAT of 1,103, while females had a 3.51 grade-point and a 1,090 test score.

The article you cited is from 1999, so the numbers given are meaningless here in 2021.

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2 hours ago, IronChef said:

The article you cited is from 1999, so the numbers given are meaningless here in 2021.

The numbers are hardly meaningless. They are the most recent numbers I could find. If you have more recent numbers, please share. Stanford doesn't have an interest in releasing this information, and since they are a private university, you can't get the information via a freedom of information request.  It's not as if Stanford only recently became a highly selective university. As the below shows, it was ranked number 1 way back in 1985 by U.S. News.  People may not like it, but athletes at Stanford--on average--have much lower test scores.

Below are the U.S. News rankings from 1983 through 2007 for 57 leading national universities. For additional U.S. News rankings, please see U.S. News Rankings, 2008 through 2015, and Average U.S. News Rankings for 129 National Universities, 2011 to 2018.

Included here are institutions that were, at some point, ranked in the top 50 in those two categories. Some values are blank because in those years the magazine did not give individual rankings to every institution, instead listing them in large groups described as “quartiles” or “tiers.” The rankings shown for 1983 and 1985 are the ones that U.S. News published in its magazine in those same years. For all subsequent years, the rankings come from U.S. News’s separate annual publication “America’s Best Colleges”, which applies rankings for the upcoming year.

Here is the list:

 Year

83

85

88

89

90

91

92

93

94

95

96

97

98

99

0

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

Stanford University

1

1

1

6

6

2

3

4

6

5

4

6

5

4

6

6

5

4

5

5

5

4

Harvard University

2

2

2

4

3

1

1

1

1

1

1

3

1

1

2

2

2

2

1

1

1

2

Yale University

3

2

3

1

1

3

2

3

3

3

2

1

3

1

4

2

2

2

3

3

3

3

Princeton University

4

4

4

2

2

4

4

2

2

2

2

2

1

1

4

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

University of California at Berkeley

5

7

5

24

13

13

16

16

19

23

26

27

23

22

20

20

20

20

21

21

20

21

University of Chicago

6

5

8

10

9

11

10

9

9

10

11

12

14

14

13

10

9

12

13

14

15

9

University of Michigan at Ann Arbor

7

 

8

25

17

21

22

24

23

21

24

24

23

25

25

25

25

25

25

22

25

24

Cornell University

8

 

11

14

11

9

12

11

10

15

13

14

14

6

11

10

14

14

14

14

13

12

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

8

 

20

             

45

50

45

42

34

41

36

38

40

37

42

41

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

10

 

11

5

7

6

6

5

4

4

5

5

6

4

3

5

5

4

4

5

7

4

Dartmouth College

10

10

6

7

8

8

8

7

8

8

7

7

7

10

11

9

9

9

9

9

9

9

California Institute of Technology

12

 

21

3

4

5

4

5

5

7

7

9

9

9

1

4

4

4

5

8

7

4

Carnegie Mellon University

13

       

22

24

19

24

24

23

28

23

25

23

23

22

21

23

22

22

21

 

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Do you think that Koll would have taken the job without being confident that, with the admission standards that will be applied to wrestlers, he could build a top 10 team?

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On 5/30/2021 at 6:21 PM, Maximus Meridius said:

Admissions standards for athletes at Stanford are not what you may think. Jameis Winston was accepted to Stanford.  Need I say more.  https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/jameis-winston-regrets-not-attending-stanford
 

 

Schools like Stanford and I have even heard Princeton now lowers the admissions for athletes. 

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15 hours ago, Maximus Meridius said:

 Everything you say makes sense, but It doesn’t square with this? 

https://stanfordmag.org/contents/how-to-build-a-dynasty

Stanford is the school of choice for the scholar-athlete. In the four classes entering the University from 1994 to 1997, the average freshman male athlete had logged a 3.73 high school GPA and a 1,215 SAT score, according to NCAA statistics. Female freshman athletes during the same period had a 3.87 GPA and a 1,151 SAT score. By comparison, the averages for all Division 1 schools combined were 2.97 and 997 for males and 3.29 and 1,007 for females. At Duke University, another school known for academics as well as athletics, incoming freshman male athletes had a 3.46 GPA and an SAT of 1,103, while females had a 3.51 grade-point and a 1,090 test score.

Despite it being from 1999, seems like it does, no?  

You listed total school athlete averages, but the prior poster was suggesting that the standards are lower for football (and basketball) than the other sports, and I'm not sure this article contradicts that.

OldGrappler was referring to those scoring less than 1200 and that the majority of those are probably football (and basketball) players.   What you list here (from 20 years ago) is stating that the average for all athletes is 1215, so it's certainly possible (maybe likely) that the football (and basketball) players are around 1000-1100 and the other sports are closer to 1200-1300+ which could average out to around 1200.

If anything, your article seems to back up what he was saying.

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

it's certainly possible (maybe likely) that the football (and basketball) players are around 1000-1100 and the other sports are closer to 1200-1300+ which could average out to around 1200

It's not that different now than it was back then. Stanford is as elite now as it was back then, give or take a slot or two in the rankings. 1200-1300 is knuckedragger status at Ivy+ schools. 

I think Koll will get a few in a year, given that Stanford already gets some of their athletes preference (e.g. even with Cornell's lowered standards, Koll in his interview mentioned Stanford was able to get "a few guys in" that Cornell wasn't). The big difference with Koll there is that they're not going to lose the guys who got in but chose a better coached or better wrestling program. Guys like Joey McKenna (who probably would've gotten in without his wrestling) will stay, and a good portion of guys like Mike Kemerer and Mike McMullan (both got in to Stanford) will choose Stanford.

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Just now, wrestlingnerd said:

It's not that different now than it was back then. Stanford is as elite now as it was back then, give or take a slot or two in the rankings. 1200-1300 is knuckedragger status at Ivy+ schools. 

I think Koll will get a few in a year, given that Stanford already gets some of their athletes preference (e.g. even with Cornell's lowered standards, Koll in his interview mentioned Stanford was able to get "a few guys in" that Cornell wasn't). The big difference with Koll there is that they're not going to lose the guys who got in but chose a better coached or better wrestling program. Guys like Joey McKenna (who probably would've gotten in without his wrestling) will stay, and a good portion of guys like Mike Kemerer and Mike McMullan (both got in to Stanford) will choose Stanford.

Yeah I agree.  It's easier for a recruited wrestler to get into Stanford than your average Joe, but it's easier for a football/basketball player to get in than a wrestler.

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On 5/31/2021 at 11:38 AM, Idaho said:

Great interview - thanks for sharing. He lays it all out. Hopefully this will stop all the "maybe he left because......" posts. 

 

17 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Can you (or anyone) summarize?  I plan to listen but haven’t gotten a chance to yet.

OK I just listened but I don't think he really "laid it all out there."   He basically just said he "likes building programs" and that he thought he had accomplished what he wanted to at Cornell (except a team title, a pretty big "except") and wanted a new challenge to do the same at Stanford.

Also one tidbit he commented on about Mineo is he is saying the salary numbers posted were much higher than reality.

He did speak pretty glowingly of the Cornell AD (Cornell's wrestling coach in the 70's and 80's), but I think Willie said he thought the AD was leaving soon?   I haven't seen all of Willie's stuff but he seems to also be saying something along the lines of "Koll was gone either way" and there was some sort of issue with the administration?   No clue if true but it certainly seems plausible and Koll isn't going to air that out in interviews.   Although if that's the case it would make his comments on the Deans seem a bit curious since he seemed a bit critical of their decision.

I know he was on the Bader show today too but haven't listened yet:

 

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Kudos to Bader for asking some of the tough questions.

 Re: the Ivy League cancelling last season, he said "it made my decision easier, I'm not gonna deny it" (around 6:30 in the video)

Around 10:00 Bader asks if he would have went somewhere else besides Cornell, he stutters then says "I'm not sure what would have happened."   Not exactly a glowing endorsement.

At 19:00 someone comes in the room who Koll may have been trying to negotiate with for an assistant coaching job but I wasn't sure who it was.  I think Koll said he was on the East coast but looked like the guy was wearing a Stanford shirt so not sure if that was someone already on the staff?

Around 25:00 seems to be indicating that Dake may not want to coach.

35:00 talks about the challenges in post-grad employment at Cornell/Ithaca compared to Stanford/Palo Alto which he think can tie into an improved RTC.

40:00 talks salary, again says what was posted wasn't accurate. Claims he could have made more at Cornell.

46:00 says still trying to get the full 9.9 scholarships and trying to endow them, then the coaching positions, then wants to work on the RTC.

48:00 confirms it's difficult to transfer to Stanford.   Says he did  "robust transfer business" at Cornell but tried to save himself from the Finger Lakes criticism by following up with "well it's hard to transfer to Cornell too"

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Recruiting kids whose parents do well financially (about 250K a year) is incredibly hard at an Ivy which Stanford doesn't have to worry about and most people are surprised how many stud wrestlers in HS who come from pretty good financial environments.

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5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Despite it being from 1999, seems like it does, no?  

You listed total school athlete averages, but the prior poster was suggesting that the standards are lower for football (and basketball) than the other sports, and I'm not sure this article contradicts that.

OldGrappler was referring to those scoring less than 1200 and that the majority of those are probably football (and basketball) players.   What you list here (from 20 years ago) is stating that the average for all athletes is 1215, so it's certainly possible (maybe likely) that the football (and basketball) players are around 1000-1100 and the other sports are closer to 1200-1300+ which could average out to around 1200.

If anything, your article seems to back up what he was saying.

None of that would explain why the average SAT score for female athletes at Stanford was 1,151. There are no female sports that bring in a profit. No football or basketball.  So it’s not a money making thing.  It’s Stanford wanting to win in all sports and willing to reject students with much higher test scores in favor of athletes will lower scores.    

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1 hour ago, Maximus Meridius said:

None of that would explain why the average SAT score for female athletes at Stanford was 1,151. There are no female sports that bring in a profit. No football or basketball.  So it’s not a money making thing.  It’s Stanford wanting to win in all sports and willing to reject students with much higher test scores in favor of athletes will lower scores.    

Ok I wasn’t sure what you were getting at.  But I think males have higher SAT averages in general?  The females had higher GPA’s.

That still doesn’t really prove anything.   It’s possible most women’s teams just have a bunch of girls around 1150 or whatever, and the football/basketball teams could be lower but then some of the other Mens sports have higher scores to average it out.

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6 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It's not that different now than it was back then. Stanford is as elite now as it was back then, give or take a slot or two in the rankings. 1200-1300 is knuckedragger status at Ivy+ schools. 

I think Koll will get a few in a year, given that Stanford already gets some of their athletes preference (e.g. even with Cornell's lowered standards, Koll in his interview mentioned Stanford was able to get "a few guys in" that Cornell wasn't). The big difference with Koll there is that they're not going to lose the guys who got in but chose a better coached or better wrestling program. Guys like Joey McKenna (who probably would've gotten in without his wrestling) will stay, and a good portion of guys like Mike Kemerer and Mike McMullan (both got in to Stanford) will choose Stanford.

Abas was heavily recruited by Cornell and I have to assume that Griffith was as well.

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55 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Abas was heavily recruited by Cornell and I have to assume that Griffith was as well.

Koll said in an interview that Griffith was. Abas had perfect grades. Griffith had very good grades. With their wrestling credentials, both of them could’ve gone anywhere they wanted, including Harvard. Every year, there are maybe a dozen or so guys like them who are top 100 type of recruits. Koll will get his fair share of them. 

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Stanford has around 4.5 wrestling scholarships, but really doesn't need more since their financial aid is so generous. If your family makes less than $150,000, no tuition for you. Many of the wrestlers get substantial financial aid. Thanks Arrillagas!

It's been pretty easy to recruit to Stanford, the school alone is incentive enough. The main reason Borelli has been successful is that he figured out how to recruit guys that would get accepted, unlike McCoy before him. McCoy recruited great wrestlers but then couldn't get them admitted. Recruiting the right guys is key.

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Koll's interview pointed out some ways that what can be built at Stanford in terms of fan base, can exceed the limitations of rural/upstate NY' frozen trundra Cornell (albeit w a gorge-ous campus in the spring and summer!).  It is extremely valuable to the vitality of NCAA wrestling to have consistent powerful top 10 and even  top 20 programs outside of Iowa and Ok (thanks Penn State and Ohio State) and with presence on the East Coast, West Coast and South (many examples).   Between ASU and Stanford (funded and w a proven leader), seems like the west coast is moving in the right direction and of course there are many other growing programs that have had wrestlers w NCAA tourney success.   There has been progress in the East and South even outside of PSU - some very good signs within the ACC and EIWA with RTC-supported teams and strong programs, culures, and coaches. 

I think it is excellent that Coach Koll is aiming so high.  While there will be many challenges, he seems to be a very good choice to make the attempt and Stanford has many inherent resources that make the prospects very intriguing. 

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