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2 hours ago, AHamilton said:

If other Ivies/EIWA are trying to crackdown on Cornell recruiting, and there is about to be war within the athletic department... there could be a significant fall off.  Meanwhile, here come Princeton and Penn.  

The Edinboro points wasn't about Cornell as an institution, but was about how changes from outside the wrestling team can have dramatic effects on the wrestling program.  If Cornell isn't able to continue doing business as it was being done, there could be issues.

I don't get the impression that the other Ivies are trying to crack down on Cornell wrestling as much as the Ivies in general are re-evaluating their recruiting and admissions practices across all sports.  This discussion has been going on for some time now.  And if this does happen - it will hurt Penn or Princeton wrestling as much as Cornell, and ultimately, drive the EIWA further into irrelevance.

If you are rooting for more lost D1 wrestling - this is a good pathway.

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that's simply false, red blades. 

1) Princeton and Penn have been complaining to the Ivy League about Cornell wrestling admissions and the use of TC3. that's fact.

2) I guess if there were wholesale changes into the admission standards for athletes across the conference then all ivies could be hurt, but i haven't heard that that's what's being discussed. as of now, the ivies get 'slots' for special consideration (although those parameters are still super high and prohibitive). 

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15 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Wow.  He was just that far out on Cornell, or is he looking for a parachute?  Because just going to being the RTC coach at UNC vs. program-building at Stanford are completely different jobs, with completely different stress levels.  Also, are Abas, Griffith, and/or Woods staying on?  Hard to imagine leaving when such a high level coach is coming right to them, plus they get to still live in Palo Alto, but they may have been burned too much to stay.

I truly don't know the status of those three. Koll said 'he's very confident they stay'. but Griffith graduates so he'd have to enter a master's program. Woods has 6 credits remaining. Abas most likely of the bunch to stay simply based off progress to degree. 

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3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

All good points. I think it's probably reasonable to expect some regression from Cornell, but I would be surprised if they aren't still a perennial top 10 team for a bit. They've got a bunch of young horses in the stable for the next 4-5 years at least.

I almost feel bad for Grey if it's true about the "admissions crackdown."

Barring any major transfers as you said he should have a great team for the next 4-5 years.  Clearly he played a role in that but I could see Koll getting a lot of the credit.

After that he will have a high bar to maintain, and potential admissions changes would certainly make that more difficult.

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25 minutes ago, red blades said:

I don't get the impression that the other Ivies are trying to crack down on Cornell wrestling as much as the Ivies in general are re-evaluating their recruiting and admissions practices across all sports.  This discussion has been going on for some time now.  And if this does happen - it will hurt Penn or Princeton wrestling as much as Cornell, and ultimately, drive the EIWA further into irrelevance.

If you are rooting for more lost D1 wrestling - this is a good pathway.

I'm rooting for no such thing.  I was merely relaying Willie's report.  I'm also not sure how a more even playing field means more lost d1 wrestling? Maybe more Cornell losses?

I'm not anti-Cornell btw.  I generally like Koll (except for his recent statements about guys taking 6 and 7 years to graduate), and really like Yianni (but am frustrated by his stagnation/regression, as well as fans who think he should be sent to the Olympics despite being our 4th best guy).  Their greyshirt process and TC3 is a little shady, but they are doing business as business is being done.  Great coaching, exciting styles of wrestling.  Heck, one of my kids coaches is a Cornell guy.  I definitely wish the team well.

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26 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

I truly don't know the status of those three. Koll said 'he's very confident they stay'. but Griffith graduates so he'd have to enter a master's program. 

I thought he was done after a full summer load. If he's already done, then it's too late to get into a master's program, unless he applied and got in already to keep Stanford as an option before the program was reinstated. You don't get to stay for grad school at Stanford just because you went there for undergrad. You have to get in and admission is still quite competitive.

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22 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I thought he was done after a full summer load. If he's already done, then it's too late to get into a master's program, unless he applied and got in already to keep Stanford as an option before the program was reinstated. You don't get to stay for grad school at Stanford just because you went there for undergrad. You have to get in and admission is still quite competitive.

I have to assume he at least applied hoping the program would be kept, not to mention he's made comments saying things like "he'd like to stay."   No clue if he knows if he already got in or not though.

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29 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I thought he was done after a full summer load. If he's already done, then it's too late to get into a master's program, unless he applied and got in already to keep Stanford as an option before the program was reinstated. You don't get to stay for grad school at Stanford just because you went there for undergrad. You have to get in and admission is still quite competitive.

Kicking out the national championship face of #SaveStanford (seen below) would be an absolutely terrible move from an optics standpoint and there is no way either the AD and/or president would allow for that rug to be pulled out because it will be a direct shot against the donors. If Griffith wants to stay, then he will be allowed to stay because politics and PR in this singular circumstance would overrule a typical grad athlete. The image below is burned into the minds of Stanford leadership

Keep Stanford Wrestling: Shane Griffith joins Varsity Aces Live

 

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1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

that's simply false, red blades. 

1) Princeton and Penn have been complaining to the Ivy League about Cornell wrestling admissions and the use of TC3. that's fact.

2) I guess if there were wholesale changes into the admission standards for athletes across the conference then all ivies could be hurt, but i haven't heard that that's what's being discussed. as of now, the ivies get 'slots' for special consideration (although those parameters are still super high and prohibitive). 

Both 1 and 2 can be true at once. Maybe there will be some tightening of transfers at Cornell, but separate from that, the Ivy League overall has been talking about cracking down on overall athletic preference for some time now, and Varsity Blues has accelerated the urgency of that conversation. Heretofore, "dumb jocks" have been tolerated by administrators because Ivy+ recruited athletes largely come from wealthy families who are important to the Ivies financially, so recruited athletes actually serve an important financial purpose. But with Varsity Blues still fresh in people's minds and DEI the top priority at elite schools in particular, athletic preference is coming under unprecedented pressure.

Will anything happen? Maybe, but I'm betting not much. For Cornell wrestling, probably, but Cornell also gets its fair share of highly academically qualified wrestlers so they'll take a hit on depth but not necessarily top performers. The great thing about wrestling is that a school can get a lot of publicity from just one wrestler, and you don't need a champion every year to stay relevant. It's not like basketball or lacrosse, where the team placement is all that matters. People don't remember how many times Cornell placed top 5 or top 10. They do remember Dake, Yianni, Dean, Nickerson, Lee, etc. And that's what Ivy+ schools should aspire to achieve with wrestling. They're never going to beat PSU or Iowa. One thing Koll got right in his interview is that of the Ivy+ schools, Stanford is uniquely positioned to win a title. I highly doubt it happens, but if Stanford miraculously goes from dumping wrestling to making it a preferred sport, with Koll at the helm, there's really no reason why they couldn't eventually win a title, as they do in various other sports.

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He could also presumably withdraw from his current summer courses and take those classes in the fall or spread those required courses out over the year and fill in up to 12 credit hours with some fun fluff classes and apply for a grad program next year. I did this my senior year because I decided to drop a useless minor and had 9 credit hours to play with my last semester to get to 12 to maintain my scholarship. With 3 years of eligibility, he has plenty of time to get a masters.

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57 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

yes 1 & 2 could both be true but what makes more sense? i haven't heard anything regarding sweeping changes in ivy admissions.

it's much more plausible the league cracks down on a very obvious loophole. 

Sweeping changes ... not likely. Too much money at stake. But we are already seeing some changes. If you look at the sports Stanford cut, they were overwhelmingly white sports. Stanford will never say this, but one way to serve the DEI master and also serve the endowment master is to replace one batch of less academically qualified applicants that doesn't contribute much financially with another less academically qualified applicant base (speaking only about averages) that also doesn't contribute much financially but diversifies the student body. (Was this the only reason? Of course not.)

Dartmouth recently cut men's and women's golf, men's lightweight rowing, and men's and women's swimming and diving. Do you not see a trend?

There is huge pressure at Ivy+ schools to diversify the student body as well as the staff and administration. Huge. It is a top topic at every Ivy these days. To what extent and at which schools remains to be seen. On a related note -- since diversifying the student body with underrepresented minorities from different socioeconomic (read: poorer) backgrounds means less revenue - -there is also a good amount of financial pressure driven by COVID. Tuition took a big divot at these schools, not to mention the many millions of dollars required to properly test, quarantine/isolate, and distance their schools for an entire year and change. 

It is not about which makes more sense. They both make sense, and I can tell you definitively that cracking down on sports preference is happening -- again, to what degree at each Ivy remains to be seen ... some may be unaffected, some may be much more affected. It already happened at Stanford until the theory that those sports didn't contribute financially went out the window as donors piled on with surprising fervor. It already happened at Dartmouth, through the elimination of five sports and all the athletic preference those sports got. I know Yale has talked about reducing "slots" for very white sports like crew. (Who knows whether they'll take action, but at the moment, women's crew has EIGHT slots at Yale. Just the women.)

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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21 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

you're way overthinking this for god's sake. 

let's be clear - cornell has been cheating the ivy system for almost 3 decades. all your gyrations are a waste of time. 

they are cracking down on the loophole. 

I’m not saying that’s not true. I don’t know. You have only heard that might happen. The broader topic of Ivies cracking down on number of slots for athletes overall is in process whether you want to hear it or not. I’m not overthinking it. To what degree it affects Ivy wrestling, if at all, remains to be seen. It is already affecting other sports at some Ivies, however. 

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11 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

what, exactly, is affecting sports at some ivies? 

this whole situation is rather simple but everyone extrapolating to their own drum with no basis

I wrote a fairly detailed answer to that first question. No basis? OK. Only you can have a basis, I suppose.

You said Cornell will be investigated for TC3. Fair enough. Very well may be true. I am not so close to that so I'll defer to your sources. Another poster said Ivies in general could be cracking down on recruited athlete preference generally, not just wrestling. I chimed in and said that part is definitely true at some Ivies, if not all. Except Cornell and Princeton, no Ivy has wrestling as a preferred sport, so maybe it doesn't affect wrestling much. We will see. But the point is still very valid. Why?

Let me spell it out again for you: every Ivy+ board of trustees is discussing DEI right now as a top priority. If you think that's not a fact, I don't know which world you live in, but it's not the real world. That has massive implications at schools that let around 10% or less of a highly self-selected applicant base in every  year. Even Cornell, with an incoming class size between 50% to 100% bigger than other Ivies and Stanford, turns down valedictorians routinely. When you try to make room for a more diverse student body, you are going to take a hit on academic qualifications. That is one of the issues that DEI efforts is trying to fix. All these elite schools have to keep their elite metrics up to run their businesses. Even their credit score is tied to incoming class metrics like yield. 

Do you not think that recruited athletes, mostly white with subpar (by Ivy standards) academic credentials, are going to be looked at very carefully by Ivy admissions under that context? If you don't, believe what you want. The Ivies and Stanford, Duke, Northwestern all got a free pass this year on DEI because none of them required standardized tests. Let's see what happens in the next couple of years. Each school will find a way, maybe by reducing athletic preference, maybe by reducing legacy preference, maybe by further elevating the Asian applicant double standard, maybe a little of each.

I used to work on the endowment side of one of these schools at one point in my career. I am not pulling this out of my ass, like you think I am. 

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1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

you're way overthinking this for god's sake. 

let's be clear - cornell has been cheating the ivy system for almost 3 decades. all your gyrations are a waste of time. 

they are cracking down on the loophole. 

How do they plan on doing that?

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2 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I wrote a fairly detailed answer to that first question. No basis? OK. Only you can have a basis, I suppose.

You said Cornell will be investigated for TC3. Fair enough. Very well may be true. I am not so close to that so I'll defer to your sources. Another poster said Ivies in general could be cracking down on recruited athlete preference generally, not just wrestling. I chimed in and said that part is definitely true at some Ivies, if not all. Except Cornell and Princeton, no Ivy has wrestling as a preferred sport, so maybe it doesn't affect wrestling much. We will see. But the point is still very valid. Why?

Let me spell it out again for you: every Ivy+ board of trustees is discussing DEI right now as a top priority. If you think that's not a fact, I don't know which world you live in, but it's not the real world. That has massive implications at schools that let around 10% or less of a highly self-selected applicant base in every  year. Even Cornell, with an incoming class size between 50% to 100% bigger than other Ivies and Stanford, turns down valedictorians routinely. When you try to make room for a more diverse student body, you are going to take a hit on academic qualifications. That is one of the issues that DEI efforts is trying to fix. All these elite schools have to keep their elite metrics up to run their businesses. Even their credit score is tied to incoming class metrics like yield. 

Do you not think that recruited athletes, mostly white with subpar (by Ivy standards) academic credentials, are going to be looked at very carefully by Ivy admissions under that context? If you don't, believe what you want. The Ivies and Stanford, Duke, Northwestern all got a free pass this year on DEI because none of them required standardized tests. Let's see what happens in the next couple of years. Each school will find a way, maybe by reducing athletic preference, maybe by reducing legacy preference, maybe by further elevating the Asian applicant double standard, maybe a little of each.

I used to work on the endowment side of one of these schools at one point in my career. I am not pulling this out of my ass, like you think I am. 

this is full of false suppositions so i'd start there. too many to name. 

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8 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

this is full of false suppositions so i'd start there. too many to name. 

Fair enough. I will say that you don't understand how these schools work at the highest level, per your own admission, so it is presumptuous of you to have that opinion. Believe what you wish.

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It’s possible that both the Ivy League moving toward a new policy on athletics admissions and Cornell getting specific scrutiny for the community college loophole are true. The former is speculation but if Willie has heard about the latter happening, he is the one who actually knows the coaches so is probably right.

I could totally see the pandemic bringing extra scrutiny on Cornell for their practices, as they had a significant number of athletes sit out the year academically. The entire premise of Ivy League athletics is that academics come first, so to have so many members of a single team withdraw from academics for the purpose of preserving athletic eligibility could not have sat well with anybody who believes in academics before athletics.
 

Nerd is onto something for increased standards on athletics admissions though coming soon. I think it’s prescient in that I fully expect race-based affirmative action to be overturned by the current Supreme Court. That will lead to questions about athletics and legacy admits, who are generally white. 

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14 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I thought he was done after a full summer load. If he's already done, then it's too late to get into a master's program, unless he applied and got in already to keep Stanford as an option before the program was reinstated. You don't get to stay for grad school at Stanford just because you went there for undergrad. You have to get in and admission is still quite competitive.

Stanford has something called a co-term, integrates undergrad with a masters. It's not difficult to get into. I believe Connor Schram was enrolled in a co-term, not sure. Many wrestlers have done this in the past.

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7 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I wrote a fairly detailed answer to that first question. No basis? OK. Only you can have a basis, I suppose.

You said Cornell will be investigated for TC3. Fair enough. Very well may be true. I am not so close to that so I'll defer to your sources. Another poster said Ivies in general could be cracking down on recruited athlete preference generally, not just wrestling. I chimed in and said that part is definitely true at some Ivies, if not all. Except Cornell and Princeton, no Ivy has wrestling as a preferred sport, so maybe it doesn't affect wrestling much. We will see. But the point is still very valid. Why?

Let me spell it out again for you: every Ivy+ board of trustees is discussing DEI right now as a top priority. If you think that's not a fact, I don't know which world you live in, but it's not the real world. That has massive implications at schools that let around 10% or less of a highly self-selected applicant base in every  year. Even Cornell, with an incoming class size between 50% to 100% bigger than other Ivies and Stanford, turns down valedictorians routinely. When you try to make room for a more diverse student body, you are going to take a hit on academic qualifications. That is one of the issues that DEI efforts is trying to fix. All these elite schools have to keep their elite metrics up to run their businesses. Even their credit score is tied to incoming class metrics like yield. 

Do you not think that recruited athletes, mostly white with subpar (by Ivy standards) academic credentials, are going to be looked at very carefully by Ivy admissions under that context? If you don't, believe what you want. The Ivies and Stanford, Duke, Northwestern all got a free pass this year on DEI because none of them required standardized tests. Let's see what happens in the next couple of years. Each school will find a way, maybe by reducing athletic preference, maybe by reducing legacy preference, maybe by further elevating the Asian applicant double standard, maybe a little of each.

I used to work on the endowment side of one of these schools at one point in my career. I am not pulling this out of my ass, like you think I am. 

DEI has become a major fact of life in admissions, and wrestling coaches need to recognize this reality. This is one reason why the elite colleges should be recruiting from California's central valley. I honestly don't know why more high school coaches in California don't emphasize academics just a little bit more, there are so many good athletes from disadvantaged backgrounds that could advance to elite colleges with the right high school academic support. College wrestling programs could protect themselves politically too. This was one of the Stanford team's claims, that they were one of the more diverse sports teams, racial and socioeconomically. This was a claim made by athletes on the UC Davis team when the state senators opened an investigation into how the messed up process worked for dropping the wrestling team in 2009. I bring up UC Davis as an example of how back in 2009 state senators inserted themselves into the process to support DEI (not called that then), and although that particular effort was ultimately unsuccessful, it shows that a diverse athlete profile can serve as political protection.

Edited by Boquist

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19 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I have to assume he at least applied hoping the program would be kept, not to mention he's made comments saying things like "he'd like to stay."   No clue if he knows if he already got in or not though.

Graduating is based on whether or not he chooses to enroll in further undergraduate coursework typically.  He is ahead of the graduation clock, so if he has a minor or something else he wants to enroll in, he very likely can do that.  I don’t believe there’s anything that limits the amount of courses you can take in an undergrad setting.

Edited by Drew87

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