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Mark Shultz vs Cael Sanderson

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The only knock on Mark Schultz was that if was off he was off. Even he said in earlier threads that he never did well in consolation type matches (which helps explain 7th in 1986) and in 1988 being completely demotivated due to drama with dupont. I think he also hurt his knee in 1988. It would make a fun match that I don't have a clue how it would turn out.

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I too would bet the house on Cael in folkstyle. I will take Cael in freestyle as well. Cael wrestled in a far tougher era internationally: 30% fewer weights, 800% more Soviets.

Actually, its Russians, not Soviets that Cael wrestled against.

 

Mark went against the Soviets (many countries were still under USSR that time thus tougher opponent for Mark?)

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Cael did very well against freakishly strong guys. The high tech guys like himself (Sajidov/Saitiev he was more vulnerable) The bulls were Romero, Gatsalov. Gatsalov is the most in line with Shultz. CAel was all over Gatsalov scoring at will then got sloppy on the mat and lost 8-7 in OT. Not many people scored on Gatsalov from 2003-2008. I think CAel would have beaten Gatsalov if he continued. Cael would have owned 185 from 2005-2012 if he would have just been passionate about it.

I agree that Cael could have owned 84 kg for awhile had he stuck it out. However, just to keep it in perspective, his win against Gatsalov was in in 2003 and I think Gatsalov was only 20 years old and was about a year away from starting his run of dominance. Cael was young as well (23, I guess?), but it wasn't like he was light years better than Gatsalov. Gatsalov obviously wasn't prepared for Cael's unique offense though. It would have been interesting if they had ever wrestled again, because the Russians are very good at learning from experience and altering their strategy. But if there's any doubt as to Cael's talent, look no further than the fact that he took 7 years off, came back and dismantled Herbert, and then placed 5th at Worlds, coming very close to getting 3rd. He only had one truly bad match at Worlds, and that was against the champ (who also won the Olympics last year). And Cael was noticeably rusty and looked like he had sucked weight pretty bad. His run from 2005-2012 could have been epic.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

 

I wouldn't call him immobile, he could move when he had to or wanted to. He just didn't use movement a lot of times.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

He did lose to Gatsalov in their only meeting. The poster above had used the 8-7 loss as an example of how Cael would have improved dramatically if he had stayed with freestyle, because he was relying solely on his folkstyle instincts. Cael's match with Gatsalov was similar to his match with Les Gutches from 2000 when Cael was winning the takedown game, but made too made mistakes with exposure and lost the match.

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When did Sanderson beat Gatsalov? The only match I saw, Gatsalov beat him.

I doubt Sanderson would have had a run of dominance. He couldn't consistently beat Sajidov or Ketoev, if at all.

He did lose to Gatsalov, but I think the other poster was using this as an example of how Cael could have improved a great deal in freestyle, because he was almost beating these guys based purely on folkstyle instincts. His match with Gatsalov was similar to his match with Gutches in 2000, where Cael was winning the takedown game but made too many mistakes and lost on exposure.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

But you know as well as I do that the more mobile wrestler doesn't always win at the World level. It would be almost impossible for a wrestler to be any less mobile than Sajidov, who stance was completely flat footed, and bent waist. Yet Sajidov didn't seem to have any problems with Cael moving about, despite Cael getting a gift from the refs in the 2003 finals that tied the match.

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I don't know how people can think he wouldn't have improved his freestyle skill had he focused on it for years and years like the Eastern Block guys. The guy won Olympic Gold as a Folkstyler!

 

I think he could have beaten anyone in the world consistently had he focused on competing internationally. Instead he won 4 NCAA titles while going undefeated and only then afterwards, started training freestyle and won Olympic Gold soon thereafter. How do you bet against him?

 

What he could do to Herbert with a 7 year layoff is just unreal to me. Herbert was good enough to get what, silver at the worlds?

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Anyone who thinks Cael wouldn't have been a freestyle superstar is crazy, but the original post was asking about Cael in his prime versus Mark Schultz in his prime. But Cael's "prime" was not really his prime in freestyle. In 2004, he was the best folkstyler ever, but had not fully adapted to freestyle yet. And it was still good enough to win the Olympics. So as good as Cael was, I don't think it's crazy to think Schultz would have beaten him in freestyle. How they would have matched up if Cael had continued in freestyle is impossible to answer, because we never got to see Cael continue. His true prime in freestyle probably would have been in the range of 2006-2009 had he kept wrestling.

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Cael Sanderson is an Olympic gold medalist. That qualifies as a superstar. His prime was 2004 - he was 25 and had been wrestling freestyle for many years. Was that his third or fourth world team? There is a short list of guys more successful than him. Mark Schultz is one of them. Schultz wins consistently.

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Cael did very well against freakishly strong guys. The high tech guys like himself (Sajidov/Saitiev he was more vulnerable) The bulls were Romero, Gatsalov. Gatsalov is the most in line with Shultz. CAel was all over Gatsalov scoring at will then got sloppy on the mat and lost 8-7 in OT. Not many people scored on Gatsalov from 2003-2008. I think CAel would have beaten Gatsalov if he continued. Cael would have owned 185 from 2005-2012 if he would have just been passionate about it.

I agree that Cael could have owned 84 kg for awhile had he stuck it out.

 

 

non argument. that fact that he stopped illustrates that he didn't want to compete. competing without wanting to would have led to sub par performances.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

Less mobile than Sajidov? He looks plenty mobile here

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Guys lets not forget that due to weird reasons Cael in 01, 02 didnt compete. He thrashed everyone in the USand only had one loss to a russian named Laliev in those two years but never got a chance to meet Adam satiev at the worlds. He could have won. So he only wrestled in 03 04 in his prime and retired. Silver and Gold, His free style prime would have been 04-08 but we will never know what he could have done. I think he would have been like Gatsalov at 185. He was a 5 time champ up a weight and Cael worked him on their feet. New rules Cael wins the takedown game against Gatsalov and beats Sajidov, Mindo and Ketoev. Remember guys less weights make it togher now to repeat-dont forget that. Cael would have had a mixed career had he wrestled through 2012 I think kinda like Bruce B. 4 golds, 2 silvers, 2 bronze, something like that. I mean you guys all saw him smash everyone in the US after 7 year layoff! And taking 5th at worlds, really 3rd in my opinion. The only match he truely got beat was to world and Oly champ Sharipov. I take Cael 7 of 10 against M Shultz.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

I'm not sure why u would think of that.

 

 

Granted he was against Japanese in boycotted Olympics but he beat the Turkish world champion. In that video, he was far from immobile. He easily blew out Japanese by tech fall. At side note, take a look at who is at his corner - Bobby Douglas. Bobby coached both Mark and Cael in Olympics. I would bet that he knows who is better in techniques, strengths, and savvy.

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Cael did beat Adam Saitiev, it just wasn't at worlds. I forget where but I know it happened.

I think it was at the Yarygin tournament in about 2003. It's on youtube, or at least it used to be, and it was a good match. Definitely noticeable that Adam was not at his ideal weight, because Cael looked huge compared to Adam. It was remarkable that Adam was able to score several takedowns, but in the end Cael prevailed.

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Guys, go back and watch some Mark Schultz matches. The dude was pretty immobile, going against one of the most mobile wrestlers of all time at the upper weights. I wonder how many guys saying Schultz would win are older than 35 years old?

 

I'm not saying Mark would win, but he's being sold short in this thread. Mark was as athletic as any American wrestler, ever. In his prime he was a lot of things but immobile was not one of them. And he would be very hard to handle in the present 2-2-(2) freestyle format.

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In FreeStyle I don't have anything to add, perhaps Cael was over-matched there I just don't know.

 

Since so many of you think Mark is going to split with Cael in Folk..... you are welcome to this hypothetical victory of course, but I'll remind you one more time, Cael doesn't lose. Say what you will, but statistics say Cael wins. Period.

 

Mark was able to stop Banach, but even he ended up with 9 losses.

 

Just seems a little presumptuous to me that Cael would be favored to take a loss by so many.

 

Maybe a little bias?

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