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moodybooty

Cost of competing for another country?

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I was thinking about how mad that Zahid is going to be if he beats Myles Amine, who's going to the Olympics.

Is it feasible for USA-raised wrestlers to get national residency in another country if they have the talent to compete at the WC/Olympic level but can't make the line-up here? When taking costs and pay opportunities, is it worth it?

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30 minutes ago, moodybooty said:

Is it feasible for USA-raised wrestlers to get national residency in another country if they have the talent to compete at the WC/Olympic level but can't make the line-up here? When taking costs and pay opportunities, is it worth it?

It's often quite feasible but whether its worth or not depends entirely on the wrestler. it costs a minimum 10,000 swiss francs to transfer (half to UWW, half to the former country) but that number can go up if the wrestlers transfers after winning a medal. 300,000 for transfering after winning Olympic gold is the max. More details here

1 Swiss Franc is currently worth $1.11 but the two currencies have been pretty close to 1 to 1 for the last 5 years. 

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8 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

It's often quite feasible but whether its worth or not depends entirely on the wrestler. it costs a minimum 10,000 swiss francs to transfer (half to UWW, half to the former country) but that number can go up if the wrestlers transfers after winning a medal. 300,000 for transfering after winning Olympic gold is the max. More details here

1 Swiss Franc is currently worth $1.11 but the two currencies have been pretty close to 1 to 1 for the last 5 years. 

Interesting that that exists, and absolutely tremendous that all payment is in Swiss Francs.  Guess UWW is getting coached up good and proper by the FIFA guys.

I think it’s good that wrestlers are able to get out there and give it a shot, this rule was a russian rule first and foremost.  Designed to keep dagestani/chechen wrestlers under lock and key as much as possible, and to make other governments really pay Russia for their guys.  How much money has had to change hands for the greater Caucasus merry-go-round rosters?  

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Wild to think that each of the USA-raised wrestlers that are wrestling overseas have paid $20K! Or found someone else to pay $20K, I guess. Yeesh. That's half down on a new Tesla.

I know wrestling isn't a money sport, but also know you can't put a dollar value on an experience like the Olympics or getting to connect to a home country. I wish there wasn't the high money barrier, would love to see what our depth could do. 

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I’m not sure too many US-raised wrestlers have found a way to pay to transfer to a foreign nation to compete.  Most of the current wrestler had prior dual citizenship due to immediate relative (parent or grandparent depending on that nations stipulations)  and used to that to obtain citizenship eligibility.  They have not previously competed for the US on the senior level, so no type of transfer of paperwork to a new country was necessary.  Sure they may have live in the US for most of their lives, but they not necessarily transfers their citizenship to a complete new country just to compete like we have seen in other cases.   Russia on the other hand seems to be the regular plucking ground for Olympic level  transfers.  

Edited by MadMardigain

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23 minutes ago, MadMardigain said:

I’m not sure too many US-raised wrestlers have found a way to pay to transfer to a foreign nation to compete.  Most of the current wrestler had prior dual citizenship due to immediate relative (parent or grandparent depending on that nations stipulations)  and used to that to obtain citizenship eligibility.  They have not previously competed for the US on the senior level, so no type of transfer of paperwork to a new country was necessary.  Sure they may have live in the US for most of their lives, but they not necessarily transfers their citizenship to a complete new country just to compete like we have seen in other cases.   Russia on the other hand seems to be the regular plucking ground for Olympic level  transfers.  

So did the Michigan guys pay $20k to switch countries with UWW?

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It depends on a lot of things. I know a few people who have done it. 

The first thing is are you serious or just trying to pull an Eddie the Eagle kind of thing. The second part is, are you eligible for citizenship in some other country and don't have to jump through a lot of hoops? Because you can buy citizenship in more than a dozen countries for low 6 figures. I think Dominica is among the cheapest options for that. They were selling citizenship for around 50k at one point. I know someone who transferred to another country and even though officially there weren't any financial hurdles, unofficially there were. The country wanted him to pay people off and he had to "buy" a business there. So that can happen, because a lot of countries still think Americans are all very wealthy. 

Then the other issue is if their national federation will accommodate you at all. Some will, some won't. Some don't care. One foreign wrestler I knew was technically part of the military, but their only job was to wrestle. They didn't care where they were or trained, just as long as they wrestled in 2-3 tournaments per year. Another wrestler I know was offered to transfer and they were going to pay him to do it, since he already had dual citizenship. 

But if you have a training base, near an RTC or something, and can qualify for dual citizenship and think you have the time to dedicate to training on that level I say go for it. I've known people on the opposite end of that who say it's better to be 4th on the US ladder than sandbag by wrestling for Madagascar and getting in that way. 

It's not like the US hasn't had guys come wrestle here from other countries. Faruk Sahin, Ildar Hazivov, Martin Beberyan, Jesus Wilson, even Karam Gaber almost left Egypt to wrestle here. 

But the cost besides the transfer fee depends on whether your new country sees you as a walking ATM machine or doesn't really care as long as you don't end up doing something stupid or embarrassing. 

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16 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

So did the Michigan guys pay $20k to switch countries with UWW?

they wouldn't have to pay anything if you start your international career for a wrestling federation other than the USA. I think most of the Americans that wrestle for other countries never had to officially transfer. Same for a lot of the Russians. 

Also it's just $10K minimum to transfer, assuming you have already won medals for your original federation.

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19 minutes ago, moodybooty said:

Yousiff Hemida had wrestled for the USA before too, iirc. He was wrestling for Egypt this week.

Was that the same guy? I wondered because he just wrestled at nationals or something else here pretty recently I think.

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1 hour ago, ThorsteinV said:

Stevan Micic won bronze at junior worlds for the USA. I wonder how much he had to pay to transfer to Serbia

It depends on if the US requested the transfer fee. If they did, someone would have had to pay Team USA 200,000 swiss francs with another 10% going to UWW (if I'm reading this correctly). 

47 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Was that the same guy? I wondered because he just wrestled at nationals or something else here pretty recently I think.

Its the same Hemida. All-American at Maryland from the New York suburbs. wrestled internationally for team usa but never won a junior or senior worlds or olympic medal so standards transfer fee would apply. 

Hemdia beat the Iranian heavy Taheri but didn't wrestle the other Egyptian in the bracket who qualified the weight for Egypt at the African and Oceana OGQ. If Hemida does get the spot it'll be the third Olympian for the CKWC. 

Edited by Jaroslav Hasek

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4 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

It depends on if the US requested the transfer fee. If they did, someone would have had to pay Team USA 200,000 swiss francs with another 10% going to UWW (if I'm reading this correctly). 

Its the same Hemida. All-American at Maryland from the New York suburbs. wrestled internationally for team usa but never won a junior or senior worlds or olympic medal so standards transfer fee would apply. 

Hemdia beat the Iranian heavy Taheri but didn't wrestle the other Egyptian in the bracket who qualified the weight for Egypt at the African and Oceana OGQ. If Hemida does get the spot it'll be the third Olympian for the CKWC. 

I wasn't sure. Good honestly that we're producing Olympic wrestlers. I didn't know Hemida was Egyptian though. I had just assumed he was American through and through. 

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Does this apply regardless of citizenship length?  For example, if Micic has been Serbian since birth does he have to declare a country and then pay to switch even though he has had dual citizenship all his life? 

don't think that matters. its not mentioned in the UWW document annyway. 

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"Article 7 – Dual nationality

Any wrestler with dual nationality may obtain the international license for only one sports nationality. If he/she wishes to change for the other nationality or for another, the rules and conditions laid down in these rules shall apply in the same way as for any sports nationality change."

Sounds like there has to be payment if the wrestler has competed for either country at any point. *EDIT - competed at a Junior or Senior World or Continental Championship at any point!*

I'm struggling with this concept a bit. Being from the US, it's easy for me to think of anyone having allegiance both to this country and to their /home country/, but I don't know how other countries perceive nationality. It isn't wild for someone to say that they're (_____)-American here; is it wild to say that they're (_____)-Italian, or (_____)-Russian, or (_____)-Australian, etc. in other parts of the world?

Getting hired to compete at the World level for a country you have zero connection with is one thing. Having to pay tens, or even hundreds of thousands to compete for a country your parent or grandparent grew up in before moving elsewhere? Especially if your culture is heavily influenced by it? Wild.

Edited by moodybooty

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2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

So all these Russians have money to blow?

not necessarily. North Macedonia has a lot of Deagestani wrestlers and Slovakia has a lot of Ossetians but they all were recruited out of high school so they hadn't wrestled for Russia yet so there were no transfer fees. I believe the move to to hire an experienced coach with connections to the North Caucasus and then rely on them to supply the talent. 

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21 hours ago, moodybooty said:

"Article 7 – Dual nationality

Any wrestler with dual nationality may obtain the international license for only one sports nationality. If he/she wishes to change for the other nationality or for another, the rules and conditions laid down in these rules shall apply in the same way as for any sports nationality change."

Sounds like there has to be payment if the wrestler has competed for either country at any point. *EDIT - competed at a Junior or Senior World or Continental Championship at any point!*

I'm struggling with this concept a bit. Being from the US, it's easy for me to think of anyone having allegiance both to this country and to their /home country/, but I don't know how other countries perceive nationality. It isn't wild for someone to say that they're (_____)-American here; is it wild to say that they're (_____)-Italian, or (_____)-Russian, or (_____)-Australian, etc. in other parts of the world?

Getting hired to compete at the World level for a country you have zero connection with is one thing. Having to pay tens, or even hundreds of thousands to compete for a country your parent or grandparent grew up in before moving elsewhere? Especially if your culture is heavily influenced by it? Wild.

Someone needs to explain to me the heavy San Marino culture found in Michigan.  I am naive.

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3 hours ago, jchapman said:

Someone needs to explain to me the heavy San Marino culture found in Michigan.  I am naive.

San Marino actually has longstanding ties with the US. They were among the first to recognize the US after we declared independence. Also they proposed an alliance with the US based on similar representative democratic principles and even offered Lincoln honorary citizenship. 

San Marino is also the longest currently existing country, it was founded in 200 or 300 AD and has existed since then uninterrupted.

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On 6/11/2021 at 12:07 PM, jchapman said:

Someone needs to explain to me the heavy San Marino culture found in Michigan.  I am naive.

Myles and Malik's mother's family originally comes from San Marino I believe.

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This is all good information.  Good for these guys getting a chance they wouldn't have if they wrestled for the USA.  In the case of Myles Amine, is it possible that San Marino paid the fees to have him come over?  Same with Micic and any other person.  It is a lot of dough.  If the other country wants them bad enough, I would think they would fork over some amount of money to have them come over. 

mspart

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