Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Flowrestling has these 2 going at it next Friday. Are there any other matchups  before the event? Can't seem to find any info on Flo but the site is not the most user friendly so I may have missed it. 

After writing this, I stumbled across a statement that the match would follow  nine Brazilian jiu-jitsu matches. Not really anything I care to watch but I'm sure many of you have different opinions. Still would appreciate some more wrestling in the mix.

 

Edited by DanGerMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It'll be the final match at the end of a BJJ card set up by our sister site, FloGrappling. No other wrestling matches will be on the card. more info here and here).

It's an experiment and I'm interested to see how it goes. almost all the BJJ guys have a general knowledge of the wrestling scene and are familiar with Burroughs. not as much knowledge of the grapplers from the wrestlers. that includes me, as I know almost nothing about the people on this card besides JB & IMar though I'm told this is an awesome card for BJJ. One of the headliners was on Joe Rogan recently

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

It'll be the final match at the end of a BJJ card set up by our sister site, FloGrappling. No other wrestling matches will be on the card. more info here and here).

It's an experiment and I'm interested to see how it goes. almost all the BJJ guys have a general knowledge of the wrestling scene and are familiar with Burroughs. not as much knowledge of the grapplers from the wrestlers. that includes me, as I know almost nothing about the people on this card besides JB & IMar though I'm told this is an awesome card for BJJ. One of the headliners was on Joe Rogan recently

Cool idea. I don’t know how much about BJJ personally but I could see myself getting into watching it. If the event helps a few BJJ guys get interested in watching wrestling, then it’s a success as far as I’m concerned 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMar was not in shape at all at the US Open. It's understandable given the long layoff before the event and his general conditioning issues. Against Burroughs in the past, he's had trouble finishing matches, so that could be a problem for him again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The supposed "rift" between the BJJ community, as alluded to by Jarslav above, is quite ridiculous actually.  

As a former wrestler that's well past their prime, I can tell you that from my perspective, BJJ has been one of the best decisions that I could have made.  I'm 43 years old, learning and training BJJ with folks of all ages, and yes, not just able to hang with the 20 somethings that come in to train, but able to athletically compete.  Now, I'm still a lower belt, and make no claims to any level of expertise in BJJ.  That comes with time.  But... i will tell you that for all those who are in the "wrestling is superior to BJJ" camp, that's not what this is about.  They are "sister" or "brother" arts. 

Wrestling, since the days of the Greek Olympics, was always a sport.  The greek military may have trained in it to help to control another person's body, but the way that wrestling has evolved to today has been purely for the sake of the sport, and the ability to denote those scoring opportunities.  Some argue wrestling is self defense.  Ok... aside from pinning someone's shoulder to the ground, what other "move" or "technique" is the fight stopper?  A strike?  That's striking, not wrestling.  A submission?  That's BJJ, not wrestling.  Wrestling has no "finishers".  

BJJ is sourced from Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and is the extension of the grappling arts, made first and foremost for self defense, and each sequence allows you to progress (slowly, or quickly) into a "finishing move" that forces some type of submission.  Still, no striking, but it's designed to pick up where wrestling left off.  

Wrestling and BJJ should be looked at as the Yin and Yang of grappling arts.  Sure, you can throw Judo, Sambo, belt wrestling, catch wrestling, etc. in there too, but the gist is that two predominant grappling arts in the world are wrestling and BJJ, and they DO have a nice symbiotic relationship.  I just ask the naysayers to step on the BJJ mat a few times, realize your wrestling gives you an advantage over most white belts (unless they too were wrestlers), and then also realize you're in deep waters with Blues, Purples, Browns, and Black belts.  In a self defense situation, my wrestling is absolutely utilized to take the adversary off their feet.  BJJ guys, unless they're upper belts, really can't take me down, and instead, pull guard, and I'm a 43 year old man.  In that self defense situation, the BJJ that I'm learning now allows me to not just say, "hey man, i pinned you to the ground, the fight's over".  No... the fight may just be starting.  BJJ is the answer to that.  

Also... JB over Imar, and not close this time.  The Imar we most recently saw isn't on JB's level. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

The supposed "rift" between the BJJ community, as alluded to by Jarslav above, is quite ridiculous actually.  

As a former wrestler that's well past their prime, I can tell you that from my perspective, BJJ has been one of the best decisions that I could have made.  I'm 43 years old, learning and training BJJ with folks of all ages, and yes, not just able to hang with the 20 somethings that come in to train, but able to athletically compete.  Now, I'm still a lower belt, and make no claims to any level of expertise in BJJ.  That comes with time.  But... i will tell you that for all those who are in the "wrestling is superior to BJJ" camp, that's not what this is about.  They are "sister" or "brother" arts. 

Wrestling, since the days of the Greek Olympics, was always a sport.  The greek military may have trained in it to help to control another person's body, but the way that wrestling has evolved to today has been purely for the sake of the sport, and the ability to denote those scoring opportunities.  Some argue wrestling is self defense.  Ok... aside from pinning someone's shoulder to the ground, what other "move" or "technique" is the fight stopper?  A strike?  That's striking, not wrestling.  A submission?  That's BJJ, not wrestling.  Wrestling has no "finishers".  

BJJ is sourced from Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and is the extension of the grappling arts, made first and foremost for self defense, and each sequence allows you to progress (slowly, or quickly) into a "finishing move" that forces some type of submission.  Still, no striking, but it's designed to pick up where wrestling left off.  

Wrestling and BJJ should be looked at as the Yin and Yang of grappling arts.  Sure, you can throw Judo, Sambo, belt wrestling, catch wrestling, etc. in there too, but the gist is that two predominant grappling arts in the world are wrestling and BJJ, and they DO have a nice symbiotic relationship.  I just ask the naysayers to step on the BJJ mat a few times, realize your wrestling gives you an advantage over most white belts (unless they too were wrestlers), and then also realize you're in deep waters with Blues, Purples, Browns, and Black belts.  In a self defense situation, my wrestling is absolutely utilized to take the adversary off their feet.  BJJ guys, unless they're upper belts, really can't take me down, and instead, pull guard, and I'm a 43 year old man.  In that self defense situation, the BJJ that I'm learning now allows me to not just say, "hey man, i pinned you to the ground, the fight's over".  No... the fight may just be starting.  BJJ is the answer to that.  

Also... JB over Imar, and not close this time.  The Imar we most recently saw isn't on JB's level. 

 

Interesting stuff.  When Rogan recently asked the best BJJ coach in the world "which martial art was best in a street fight?" I think he was expecting an answer with a specific martial art.  Instead Danaher basically said "Any martial art which has a sporting component."  He believes that if you compete in wrestling, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, etc. that any of those is the "best" for self-defense.  The sporting component and the experience competing in high stakes competitions in any combat sport is far more important than just drilling (for instance) aikido joint manipulations on a passive opponent.

He also pointed out three weaknesses in BJJ that he felt needed improvement:  poor takedowns, poor leglocks (he has fixed this), and (I think) poor top control.

I would argue that wrestling finishers are the takedowns ala Kyle Dake.  I'm also pretty sure that in a real self defense situation, many of us wrestlers could figure something out after a takedown.  

Is it really even fair to call it "Brazillian" JJ anymore?  The way it is practiced now looks quite a bit different from the way it was practiced by Royce Gracie in the early UFCs... heck I can remember it being called Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  Leg locks are hugely important now and were downplayed 30 years ago.  The leg locks have been around for quite some time in Japan, but were revolutionized by a Kiwi living in NYC.  Even the triangle wasn't part of BJJ until the 70s when a Gracie student showed his teacher an old Japanese Judo text and then the triangle became part of the art.

I highly recommend that anyone listen to any interview with Danaher,  The man is fascinating and knowledgeable on a ton of subjects including international wrestling.  Flo has an video of he and Askren talking, he has been on Rogan twice, and also on the Lex Fridman podcast.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Interesting stuff.  When Rogan recently asked the best BJJ coach in the world "which martial art was best in a street fight?" I think he was expecting an answer with a specific martial art.  Instead Danaher basically said "Any martial art which has a sporting component."  He believes that if you compete in wrestling, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, etc. that any of those is the "best" for self-defense.  The sporting component and the experience competing in high stakes competitions in any combat sport is far more important than just drilling (for instance) aikido joint manipulations on a passive opponent.

He also pointed out three weaknesses in BJJ that he felt needed improvement:  poor takedowns, poor leglocks (he has fixed this), and (I think) poor top control.

I would argue that wrestling finishers are the takedowns ala Kyle Dake.  I'm also pretty sure that in a real self defense situation, many of us wrestlers could figure something out after a takedown.  

Is it really even fair to call it "Brazillian" JJ anymore?  The way it is practiced now looks quite a bit different from the way it was practiced by Royce Gracie in the early UFCs... heck I can remember it being called Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  Leg locks are hugely important now and were downplayed 30 years ago.  The leg locks have been around for quite some time in Japan, but were revolutionized by a Kiwi living in NYC.  Even the triangle wasn't part of BJJ until the 70s when a Gracie student showed his teacher an old Japanese Judo text and then the triangle became part of the art.

I highly recommend that anyone listen to any interview with Danaher,  The man is fascinating and knowledgeable on a ton of subjects including international wrestling.  Flo has an video of he and Askren talking, he has been on Rogan twice, and also on the Lex Fridman podcast.

 

Super true and very accurate.  Danaher is always a great listen.  I have never seen a question asked that he hadn’t clearly put a lot of thought into.  Might be a result of his background that actually had him wind up at the Gracie Academy way back in the day.

And lol at the Brazilian part, very true, would you prefer Manhattan, New Zealand, or Puerto Rican Jiu Jitsu?

Leg locks are terrifying btw, the speed with which those guys can go from standing to removing your knee ligaments is jaw dropping, especially Jones and Ryan.  There’s a bonkers clip on youtube with rogan and craig jones where he talks about a match with a very good brazilian guy who used to be in the UFC named vinny magalhaes.  Brazilians “don’t tap to leg locks” so he just let craig break his leg.  It’s wild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, IronChef said:

IMar was not in shape at all at the US Open. It's understandable given the long layoff before the event and his general conditioning issues. Against Burroughs in the past, he's had trouble finishing matches, so that could be a problem for him again.

Imar was chonk at the US Open. His cankles were bigger than Cohlton Shultz's neck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Imar was chonk at the US Open. His cankles were bigger than Cohlton Shultz's neck.

Not the first time IMar’s had that happen, he tells a good story about Mark Perry having a serious come to Jesus meeting with him at Junior Nationals or trials after he got teched by A. Valencia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

Not the first time IMar’s had that happen, he tells a good story about Mark Perry having a serious come to Jesus meeting with him at Junior Nationals or trials after he got teched by A. Valencia

I think we can all agree there is a different reason for the lack of conditioning this time around...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LJB said:

i will just piggy back on the love fest for danaher...

if you have any interest in any form of combat sport then he is someone you should listen to...

he is a combat sport savant and a modern day wile e. coyote... a true super genius...

It is really unbelievable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Interesting stuff.  When Rogan recently asked the best BJJ coach in the world "which martial art was best in a street fight?" I think he was expecting an answer with a specific martial art.  Instead Danaher basically said "Any martial art which has a sporting component."  He believes that if you compete in wrestling, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, etc. that any of those is the "best" for self-defense.  The sporting component and the experience competing in high stakes competitions in any combat sport is far more important than just drilling (for instance) aikido joint manipulations on a passive opponent.

He also pointed out three weaknesses in BJJ that he felt needed improvement:  poor takedowns, poor leglocks (he has fixed this), and (I think) poor top control.

I would argue that wrestling finishers are the takedowns ala Kyle Dake.  I'm also pretty sure that in a real self defense situation, many of us wrestlers could figure something out after a takedown.  

Is it really even fair to call it "Brazillian" JJ anymore?  The way it is practiced now looks quite a bit different from the way it was practiced by Royce Gracie in the early UFCs... heck I can remember it being called Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  Leg locks are hugely important now and were downplayed 30 years ago.  The leg locks have been around for quite some time in Japan, but were revolutionized by a Kiwi living in NYC.  Even the triangle wasn't part of BJJ until the 70s when a Gracie student showed his teacher an old Japanese Judo text and then the triangle became part of the art.

I highly recommend that anyone listen to any interview with Danaher,  The man is fascinating and knowledgeable on a ton of subjects including international wrestling.  Flo has an video of he and Askren talking, he has been on Rogan twice, and also on the Lex Fridman podcast.

 

This is great context and super helpful.  Again, my training in BJJ (or just JJ) is just underway, and I'm absolutely loving it.  What you said above regarding Danaher's quotes aligns well.  When combining wrestling and BJJ, the grappling art becomes much more complete overall.  BOTH are still missing the striking element (in a self defense situation), and yes, both wrestlers and BJJ are subject to the "one hit wonder" that will knock your butt out.  The Muay Thai art is one that seems to specialize well in offsetting that standup game that a wrestler or BJJ practitioner attempts to apply.  I agree that the best "art" is one that you can pull from your arsenal for the moment, as each moment is different.  

However, I suppose the point of my comment was more around how the wrestling and BJJ community should look at each other with more favorability towards one another, since wrestling will absolutely assist the BJJ practitioner's takedown game (as an example), while BJJ introduces finishing concepts (like chokes and bars) that wrestling just doesn't have.  I suppose I'm commenting more about the "pure version" of each art, and how they complement each other, instead of some on the boards commenting on how a wrestler will immediately go into "ground and pound", which, by definition, is not taught in wrestling.  

Net/Net:  the closer these two arts choose to complement each other, and are mutually respected, the better, I think, for grapplers all around.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For all the Danaher fans - the FloGrappling team went down to Puerto Rico to shoot a series about Danaher, Gordan Ryan and the rest of the team. Haven't watched it myself yet but I hear good things! If you have a Flo subscription you get all the other sites' content including FloGrappling. link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/11/2021 at 9:58 AM, Jaroslav Hasek said:

For all the Danaher fans - the FloGrappling team went down to Puerto Rico to shoot a series about Danaher, Gordan Ryan and the rest of the team. Haven't watched it myself yet but I hear good things! If you have a Flo subscription you get all the other sites' content including FloGrappling. link

I checked out and enjoyed both episodes. Good stuff. Love What Danaher has built and the cerebral approach he takes. Also cool to see local boy Nick Rodriguez training there now. Thanks for the rec. 

Sucks about JB and Imar. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LJB said:

perhaps imar should just quietly retire and take a cush assistant gig somewhere... 

He's already got one. With the new job and the year long lay off due to injury, he doesn't seem anywhere close to being a factor to make a team this year. I don't think this would have been competitive at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

He's already got one. With the new job and the year long lay off due to injury, he doesn't seem anywhere close to being a factor to make a team this year. I don't think this would have been competitive at all.

competitive schemetitive...

don't agree to make the weight if you are not willing to or can't...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...