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Post Covid, What Changes?

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2 hours ago, Idaho said:

So basically this really only applies to a  1 day tournament. 

Yes, and I should have specified that, but most college opens have gone that way. Going 2 dates would steal a possible scheduling date. I think they still allow two sets of two consecutive dates to count as 1 of 16 but schools have already used that in scheduling.

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6 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Yes, and I should have specified that, but most college opens have gone that way. Going 2 dates would steal a possible scheduling date. I think they still allow two sets of two consecutive dates to count as 1 of 16 but schools have already used that in scheduling.

The calculation has changed slightly, in that there’s two “single date” exemptions allowed, but they’re now for two duals or one tournament over a three day period. (Friday-Sunday duals or a two or three day tournament, although there are presently no three-day tournaments). Your point still stands, Gimp, but wanted to clarify.

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1 minute ago, SetonHallPirate said:

The calculation has changed slightly, in that there’s two “single date” exemptions allowed, but they’re now for two duals or one tournament over a three day period. (Friday-Sunday duals or a two or three day tournament, although there are presently no three-day tournaments). Your point still stands, Gimp, but wanted to clarify.

Which is why I phrased it more generically because it allows them to do bigger events (bigger than 6 in a day not bigger than they used to be) but it could be 'stealing' a date that they had been saving for consecutive day duals. But, I suspect a lot of people don't realize either way it could be done.

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On 6/20/2021 at 10:57 PM, Idaho said:

Realistically how many times does this happen in a college season where a guy isn't able to wrestle his 7th match of the day? 

It happens all the time in open tournaments; anytime there's more than 16 in a bracket it's a possibility.  Much of the time it's reported as a forfeit, so if you're not careful a guy is charged with a loss for a bout he wasn't permitted to wrestle.  Can really mess up RPI.

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24 minutes ago, jdalu75 said:

It happens all the time in open tournaments; anytime there's more than 16 in a bracket it's a possibility.  Much of the time it's reported as a forfeit, so if you're not careful a guy is charged with a loss for a bout he wasn't permitted to wrestle.  Can really mess up RPI.

But RPI wrestling is NCWA! (jk)

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2 hours ago, jdalu75 said:

It happens all the time in open tournaments; anytime there's more than 16 in a bracket it's a possibility.  Much of the time it's reported as a forfeit, so if you're not careful a guy is charged with a loss for a bout he wasn't permitted to wrestle.  Can really mess up RPI.

1 day open tournaments is where it happens as discussed earlier. That's where they MedFFT and it's not a loss. 

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3 hours ago, jdalu75 said:

It happens all the time in open tournaments; anytime there's more than 16 in a bracket it's a possibility.  Much of the time it's reported as a forfeit, so if you're not careful a guy is charged with a loss for a bout he wasn't permitted to wrestle.  Can really mess up RPI.

 

48 minutes ago, IronChef said:


Do you have an example of this happening? Seems quite unlikely.

Why do you think it unlikely? It might get fixed by the end of the season but what should be ncs or med ffts become forfeits or defaults and vice versa quite often as the people at the table show it that way and it's not noticed since the computer grabs it and puts it away very quickly.

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On 6/20/2021 at 9:57 PM, Idaho said:

Realistically how many times does this happen in a college season where a guy isn't able to wrestle his 7th match of the day? 

A few years ago at the NAIA a guy won and then lost and  battled back for 3rd.  Had opportunity to wrestle for True 2nd,  but they said he already hit 6 matches.  Huge arguement ensued as to whether or not True Placement matches count on total.  They called rules people and it was stated it did.  So if anything,  make it so True Placement matches don't count!  Right now too many schools losing money on a  tournament that can be done in a single day,  because of one freaking instance! 

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3 minutes ago, Swayz said:

A few years ago at the NAIA a guy won and then lost and  battled back for 3rd.  Had opportunity to wrestle for True 2nd,  but they said he already hit 6 matches.  Huge arguement ensued as to whether or not True Placement matches count on total.  They called rules people and it was stated it did.  So if anything,  make it so True Placement matches don't count!  Right now too many schools losing money on a  tournament that can be done in a single day,  because of one freaking instance! 

Huh? Why wouldn't true placement matches count? We can well argue the need for the rule at all, but it's put there for health and safety reasons. A bout is a bout. If a 7th bout is bad, it's bad. Doesn't matter why you're wrestling it.

What might be interesting with all the current computerization available could be to total up the time wrestled and say you can't start another match if more than say 40 minutes already wrestled (just to put a number out there). So if he had defaults or pins, he could keep going.

 

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On 6/25/2021 at 12:53 PM, IronChef said:


Do you have an example of this happening? Seems quite unlikely.

I've sent long lists of corrections of all kinds to EIWA coaches, the NWCA, Wrestlestat, and the NCAA.  Happens .... all .... the .... time.  A quick look at my records and here's one case:

11/4/2018, Princeton Open, 141, Trackwrestling:  Bout 445, Peter Ogunsanya, Army West Point FF over Marshall Keller, Princeton.  The bout is shown on both wrestlers' ISRF pages as For.  Keller had already wrestled six bouts (wrestled, no forfeits or byes) in the tournament, so this should have been a RULE enforcement bout with PJ advancing by the 6-bout rule.  Instead, this was counted as a win in his Div I results, although not at his EIWA tourney weight.  It was counted as a loss for Keller.

The RPI calculations are very precise.  The one case I've seen that shows the actual RPI values, not just the rankings, is on the NCAA website and is from the 125-pound class in 2016.  The difference between the wrestlers with the 27th and 28th RPIs was 0.00005.  If a bout that shouldn't be counted is counted in a wrestler's record (or vice versa) his RPI can be changed by as much as 0.005.  By adding or deleting a single bout result I was able to artificially change the RPI rankings by as much as three places for some wrestlers on that list.

In the case I cited, Ogunsanya was credited with an extra win and Keller was charged with an extra loss by the NWCA, for a bout that didn't (and couldn't) happen.  It affected their RPIs, the RPIs of their opponents, and of their opponents' opponents.  One erroneous report.

 

Edited by jdalu75

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On 6/25/2021 at 2:44 PM, gimpeltf said:

Huh? Why wouldn't true placement matches count? We can well argue the need for the rule at all, but it's put there for health and safety reasons. A bout is a bout. If a 7th bout is bad, it's bad. Doesn't matter why you're wrestling it.

What might be interesting with all the current computerization available could be to total up the time wrestled and say you can't start another match if more than say 40 minutes already wrestled (just to put a number out there). So if he had defaults or pins, he could keep going.

 

That's what the state of SD does in high school.  5 match limit or 30 minutes (ot doesn't count). I think is needs to be 42 min  or 6 match limit in college. If you have a match under 7 minutes of regulation,  but hit 6,  you could move on. 

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