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BobDole

Does being a 4X high school champ increase the likelihood of being an NCAA champ?

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7 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

3 chances at which title in the 70s and 80s?

NCAAs had 4 chances all that time as did NJ.

3 chances at a state title

Per Jersey Wrestling's Rofkin page, his best wrestlers of the 80's only had 3 placings, no one had 4.

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1 minute ago, BobDole said:

3 chances at a state title

Per Jersey Wrestling's Rofkin page, his best wrestlers of the 80's only had 3 placings, no one had 4.

Mike Frick was 1-2-1-1 graduating in '72. Lou Durant placed 4xs winning in '78.

Luke Skove was a 4x Region 6 champ winning states 3x.

Just because no one happened to have placed all 4 years doesn't mean they were excluded from doing so.

 

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5 hours ago, portajohn said:

Everything in your life has  eventually become a revelation that you should switch from single ply to double ply. Unfortunately you're not yet quite there with your ranking knowledge

I legit thought you were talking about geared powerlifting for a bit…then I remembered it was from the ‘john

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Here's AZ 4x champions.

Brian Honyouti A.S.D.B.(all classes)
2. 1962-65 Frank Vargas A.S.D.B.(all classes)
3. 1968-71 Earl Plunkett A.S.D.B.
4. 1973-76 Alvaro Fenn Benson
5. 1975-79 Art Hamlett Gilbert
6. 1980-83 Willie Paul Maxwell Santa Cruz
7. 1980-83 Sammy Chagolla Peoria
8. 1981-84 Paul Salazar St. John’s
9. 1984-87 Ernie Molina Peoria
10. 1985-88 Wayne McMinn Apache Junction*
11. 1989-92 Rob Roy McMinn Apache Junction*
12. 1990-93 Aaron Simpson Welton Antelope
13. 1992-95 Ted Rico Miami
14. 1996-99 Nick Frost Salpointe
15. 1999-02 ‘Gordo’Villescusa Rio Rico
16. 2000-03 Waldo Gutierrez Morenci
17. 2001-04 Angel Cejudo Maryvale
18. 2002-05 Nick Gallick Sunnyside
19. 2002-05 Matt Lopez Sunnyside
20. 2002-05 Nate Lee Payson
21. 2007-07 Mike Moreno Sunnyside
22. 2003-07 Kyle DeBerry Sunnyside*
23. 2007-10 Luke Goettl Mingus
24. 2007-10 Rick Ryan Showlow
25. 2008-11 Kory Deberry Sunnyside*
26. 2009-12 Ryder Nielson St. John’s
27. 2009-12 Trey Andrews Safford
28. 2010-13 Dalton Brady Chandler
29. 2011-15 Ryan Allred Camp Verde
30. 2012-16 Jacob Swift Deer Valley
31. 2014-17 Hayden Uhler Camp Verde
32. 2015-18 Jackson Allen Showlow
33. 2015-18 Roman Bravo-Young Sunnyside
34. 2015-18 Gator Groves McClintock/Chandler
35. 2016-19 Diego Guerrero Waldon Grove
36. 2016-19 Mckade Finch Safford
37. 2016-19 Dawon Andrews Safford
38. 2017-20 Clayson Goodwin Benson
39. 2018-21 Zach Espalin Chandler

 

I only count 4 D1 AAs. Maybe 5? Not sure. 

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Does it increase it compared to what? Being a 3X champ? Not being a state champ at all.

BTW, I am pretty sure NJ does  not have 17 4X champs. It's more like 5 or 6.

I recall that when Mark Grey won his 4th, there was a lot of press about him being the first to do it. If earlier wrestlers were not allowed to compete for four, Gey's distinction would have been a lot less meaningful. Anyway, you can't assume that someone who won 3 out of 3 would have won his 4th.

 

Edited by NJDan

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55 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Does it increase it compared to what? Being a 3X champ? Not being a state champ at all.

BTW, I am pretty sure NJ does  not have 17 4X champs. It's more like 5 or 6.

I recall that when Mark Grey won his 4th, there was a lot of press about him being the first to do it. If earlier wrestlers were not allowed to compete for four, Gey's distinction would have been a lot less meaningful. Anyway, you can't assume that someone who won 3 out of 3 would have won his 4th.

 

Off the top of my head- Mike (Mark won 4 Preps) Grey,  Andrew Campolattano,  Anthony Ashnault and Nick Suriano. That's it.

Scott Winston won 3. Injured freshman year.

Gerry Nisivoccia won 2 but was career undefeated. Don't remember the circumstances.

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9 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Mike Frick was 1-2-1-1 graduating in '72. Lou Durant placed 4xs winning in '78.

Luke Skove was a 4x Region 6 champ winning states 3x.

Just because no one happened to have placed all 4 years doesn't mean they were excluded from doing so.

 

PER THE INFORMATION I FOUND, DURING THE 1980'S ON "JERSEY WRESTLING'S" ROKFIN PAGE WRESTLERS ALL HAD THREE PLACINGS AND NONE HAD 4.

GUYS LIKE JOE MELCHIORE AND JOHN BARNA WON THREE TITLES. THROUGH THE LIST OF 135 ATHLETES NONE PLACED FOUR TIMES. 

ON TOP OF THAT IN THE 1970'S AT LEAST ONE ATHLETE(LOU DURANT) PLACED FOUR TIMES. 

AS STATED HERE, I AM LOOKING FOR THE CORRECT INFORMATION SINCE IT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT ATHLETES COULD ONLY PARTICIPATE IN THREE STATE TOURNAMENTS. 

16 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

On 4-timers alone New Jersey is 2 for 4. I'm still trying to find the data on the 1970's and 1980's. From what I have seen it looks like there were only three chances at a title in the 1980's.

More information would be greatly appreciated if you have it.

 

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54 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Off the top of my head- Mike (Mark won 4 Preps) Grey,  Andrew Campolattano,  Anthony Ashnault and Nick Suriano. That's it.

Scott Winston won 3. Injured freshman year.

Gerry Nisivoccia won 2 but was career undefeated. Don't remember the circumstances.

Right, I meant Mike, not Mark.

 

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13 hours ago, Chet Hanson said:

The four wrestlers from the upper peninsula should be omitted from any analysis.

I just pasted the list.  Not my place to decide that.  However, I can say that Maloney was a monster in High School and I don't remember him really being challenged back then. I know he went to MSU, but didn't stay there for too long.  The other 3 are too far ahead of me to rightly say anything...

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11 hours ago, Idaho said:

Idaho has had 25 4x state champs - most notably:

Chris Owens - 2x AA at Ok State 

Brett Lawrence - AA at Minnesota

Jared Lawrence - 4x AA and Nat. Champ at Minnesota

Ridge Lovett - Nebraska 

 

 

Cordell Anderson was a 2x AA also

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14 minutes ago, BobDole said:

PER THE INFORMATION I FOUND, DURING THE 1980'S ON "JERSEY WRESTLING'S" ROKFIN PAGE WRESTLERS ALL HAD THREE PLACINGS AND NONE HAD 4.

GUYS LIKE JOE MELCHIORE AND JOHN BARNA WON THREE TITLES. THROUGH THE LIST OF 135 ATHLETES NONE PLACED FOUR TIMES. 

ON TOP OF THAT IN THE 1970'S AT LEAST ONE ATHLETE(LOU DURANT) PLACED FOUR TIMES. 

AS STATED HERE, I AM LOOKING FOR THE CORRECT INFORMATION SINCE IT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT ATHLETES COULD ONLY PARTICIPATE IN THREE STATE TOURNAMENTS. 

 

Where are you getting this interpretation? Just because something happened in a certain way doesn't mean it was legislated that way.

There was no rule stating three times only. I already pointed out that Luke Skove was a 4x region champ winning 3 States.

Joey lost 3 matches- all freshman year. He was eligible.

Sam Cole was 1-2-2 (10-11-12) at States but won regions 3xs (9-11-12). He was eligible.

Nowhere on that page does it say they couldn't. They just didn't.

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10 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Where are you getting this interpretation? Just because something happened in a certain way doesn't mean it was legislated that way.

There was no rule stating three times only. I already pointed out that Luke Skove was a 4x region champ winning 3 States.

Joey lost 3 matches- all freshman year. He was eligible.

Sam Cole was 1-2-2 (10-11-12) at States but won regions 3xs (9-11-12). He was eligible.

Nowhere on that page does it say they couldn't. They just didn't.

Freshman have been able to compete in states in NJ going back to atleast some point in the 60s 

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41 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I know. I have no idea where he's getting this idea.

Are you so dense that you literally refuse to read what I'm stating?

In looking for information on the 4x finalists I found some good information on Jersey Wrestling's Rokfin page ranking the best wrestlers of each decade. For the 1980's none of the top wrestlers had placed four times out of 135 wrestlers he ranked. That lead me to the conclusion that there was a POSSIBILITY of athletes only having only three years of eligibility. Hence that is why I politely ASKED for clarification and even noted on the data that it was not complete.

 

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1 hour ago, BobDole said:

Cordell Anderson was a 2x AA also

That's right - good catch -going way back to the 70's.  Utah State - The crazy thing about him was he started wrestling his freshman year of high school and won a state title his first year.  

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6 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Are you so dense that you literally refuse to read what I'm stating?

In looking for information on the 4x finalists I found some good information on Jersey Wrestling's Rokfin page ranking the best wrestlers of each decade. For the 1980's none of the top wrestlers had placed four times out of 135 wrestlers he ranked. That lead me to the conclusion that there was a POSSIBILITY of athletes only having only three years of eligibility. Hence that is why I politely ASKED for clarification and even noted on the data that it was not complete.

 

I'm from NJ which we all know has the densest population!

But somebody is being dense. I answered the question a couple times showing it wasn't ever the case. I showed 4x region champs and you kept asking the question phrased as a conclusion.

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42 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Are you so dense that you literally refuse to read what I'm stating?

In looking for information on the 4x finalists I found some good information on Jersey Wrestling's Rokfin page ranking the best wrestlers of each decade. For the 1980's none of the top wrestlers had placed four times out of 135 wrestlers he ranked. That lead me to the conclusion that there was a POSSIBILITY of athletes only having only three years of eligibility. Hence that is why I politely ASKED for clarification and even noted on the data that it was not complete.

 

In all fairness bob dole I feel a few people already pointed this out to you earlier in the thread, if you are looking for someone in NJ that won 3 and wasn’t permitted to compete as a freshman you need to look back to 30s and 40s, there’s a chance someone from the great newton teams of the time had that situation but dating back to the late 60s freshman have been able to compete right away.

 

I remember when Grey was about to be the first 4xer it was a pretty huge deal, NJ was one of the last states to not have a 4x champ before him, numerous guys had been close 3x champ 4x Finalists...but even today it’s still a pretty rare accomplishment 

as it stands 50 percent of NJ 4x finalists went on to be national champs ( ashnault, Suriano) 

unfortunately Camp seemed to have some confidence issues he never recovered from after transferring, and grey was a 2x AA 2x blood round loser in some absolutely stacked brackets 

NJ 3x champs have a good number of national titles ( Hahn 2, Molinaro  , Glenn and Donnie Pritzlaff, Darrion Caldwell, Mike frick 2x) 

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17 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Depends on where you wrestle. A 4x state champion from Kentucky is less likely to AA than a 4x state champion from Ohio or California. 

Unless you are Justin Mejia from California. Here is a 4X Cali State Champ and went back and forth on committing from Iowa to Illinois or the other way around shoot I don't remember. I don't think he ever wrestled a single match for a Big 10 school. Then he ends up at Fresno State and it appeared to be a good fit for both, but he wasn't in the line up on a consistent basis. He then transferred to Clackamas Community College. He is now at his 4th school and transferred from Fresno because he didn't feel like he would be able to grow and improve there.

A very interesting take on his part. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

In all fairness bob dole I feel a few people already pointed this out to you earlier in the thread, if you are looking for someone in NJ that won 3 and wasn’t permitted to compete as a freshman you need to look back to 30s and 40s, there’s a chance someone from the great newton teams of the time had that situation but dating back to the late 60s freshman have been able to compete right away.

 

I remember when Grey was about to be the first 4xer it was a pretty huge deal, NJ was one of the last states to not have a 4x champ before him, numerous guys had been close 3x champ 4x Finalists...but even today it’s still a pretty rare accomplishment 

as it stands 50 percent of NJ 4x finalists went on to be national champs ( ashnault, Suriano) 

unfortunately Camp seemed to have some confidence issues he never recovered from after transferring, and grey was a 2x AA 2x blood round loser in some absolutely stacked brackets 

NJ 3x champs have a good number of national titles ( Hahn 2, Molinaro  , Glenn and Donnie Pritzlaff, Darrion Caldwell, Mike frick 2x) 

Thank you, I just wanted a damn answer of yes or no. Past the recent greats knowing when random guys wrestled is way beyond my New Jersey knowledge.

It is mindboggling that there have only been four 4xers in New Jersey and it only happened recently. 

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52 minutes ago, TexRef said:

Unless you are Justin Mejia from California. Here is a 4X Cali State Champ and went back and forth on committing from Iowa to Illinois or the other way around shoot I don't remember. I don't think he ever wrestled a single match for a Big 10 school. Then he ends up at Fresno State and it appeared to be a good fit for both, but he wasn't in the line up on a consistent basis. He then transferred to Clackamas Community College. He is now at his 4th school and transferred from Fresno because he didn't feel like he would be able to grow and improve there.

A very interesting take on his part. 

 

He didn't end up wrestling for Clackamas - not on the roster as of now.... so that adds more to the mystique. 

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