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Jaroslav Hasek

the NCAA is not 'above the law'

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

In other areas of school, the money goes to facilities and professors  more so than to individual kids outside of need based aid.

In other areas of school the facilities and professors produce the money, the kids don't.  If the chemistry department had a kid who was infinitely better at chemistry than his professors, and his chemistry work was producing millions, he'd get paid.  

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

I'm concerned about a further lack of parity between schools. Big money schools with deep pocketed alums just got talent richer.

My thoughts as well. Who pays for the likeness? The ncaa or the schools who are part of the ncaa? If schools, how can smaller market schools compete? This is now a recruiting tool that a person can make more money at one school versus another. 

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1 hour ago, boconnell said:

In other areas of school the facilities and professors produce the money, the kids don't.  If the chemistry department had a kid who was infinitely better at chemistry than his professors, and his chemistry work was producing millions, he'd get paid.  

If his work was producing millions he would not be at school but collecting the millions he is earning.  Welcome to the NBA. 

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Curious, will previous college athletes that the institutions capitalized upon be provided some type of reparation?  I immediately think of Terrel Pryor for the Buckeyes that brought this topic up a few years back.  TOSU was making a killing off the sales of his jersey, yet he gets caught up because he got a tattoo for free from a booster.  Eligibility was cracked and if I recall, didn't he leave a bit early due to the series of unfortunate events?  What about him, and all the other athletes that fall into that category from previous years? 

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3 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

I'm concerned about a further lack of parity between schools. Big money schools with deep pocketed alums just got talent richer.

How exactly would this happen?   Like just guarantee everyone an endorsement deal from Milwaukee Tools?

I imagine this will ultimately have to have some impact on RTC’s right?  Otherwise they could give endorsements from the NLWC since they’re not actually affiliated with the school?

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1 hour ago, Idaho said:

If his work was producing millions he would not be at school but collecting the millions he is earning.  Welcome to the NBA. 

My point is that in most areas of study, the professors are far better than the students.  That is why the professors and schools make money.  That isn't the case in athletics.  Athletes are better than their coaches and are the ones worth money.  They should be earning.

Edited by boconnell

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11 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You think a chemist would leave school because he had produced valuable work?  No way.  He'd stay in school and keep producing while in school.  There is no reason to leave the atmosphere where you produced the valuable work.  

Depends on the commercial potential of the work. If Monsanto comes knocking with a large salary and bonus, then yes, I think he leaves. This is why schools have had to create business incubators in order to compete.

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5 hours ago, boconnell said:

Just like in academics.  And just like in every other area of life.  If those schools can provide a better compensation for athletes then I hope those athletes can receive the better compensation.  There is no reason an athlete should be denied a better life so that smaller colleges can have more competitive sports teams. 

Other than the entire purpose of the ncaa is to provide as even a playing field as possible to all members in their various divisions. See: practice time limits, season length, scholarship limits, access to postseason in all sports but D1 FB which actually provides the largest payout to D1 schools and ncaa sees  none of that.

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57 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The NCAA gets their cut. Nevertheless, the pro leagues put controls in to even the playing field. Maybe FB and BB players will have to absorb a cut in play when they go pro. 

The pro leagues do not put controls in to level the playing field. They do it because it is good for business. Remember that salary caps are collectively bargained. The players agree to it because...that's right...it's good for business.

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16 hours ago, dman115 said:

I also am torn about what athlete's already do get for being an athlete (tuition, books, room and board, travel, clothes, special tutoring, etc.) and why isn't that enough?  But on the flip side I also understand how much money universities do make off of athletes.  So again...just torn.

The argument I make toward this is there are engineering students,  medical students, etc etc who are going to school at no charge through grants and scholarships, plus in many many cases have good jobs all set upon graduation through university/department placement programs.....yet their income while going through is not regulated in any way.  As you stated the universities make billions through athletics, yet the athletes are heavily regulated in how and how much they can bring in in income.

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7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The pro leagues do not put controls in to level the playing field. They do it because it is good for business. Remember that salary caps are collectively bargained. The players agree to it because...that's right...it's good for business.

A level playing field is good for business.

Edited by Plasmodium

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16 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

If you have ever asked for a raise and your boss says, "why isn't your current salary enough?", do you have a reply?

So I take it you think athletes are employee's?  Playing sports in college is their "job"?  Their "free" education offer's zero monetary benefit to them post college (talking about major D1 sports)?

Anyway, again I am torn...just don't know how much is to much, or not enough for these athletes.  I have gone back in forth over the years on this topic...some years I am like "Holy crap, I can't believe these guys, or gals can't make money"...then other years I am like "Holy crap, these guys, or gals do get a lot already for playing sports in college".  Not to mention all the other negative factors this could potentially bring to major NCAA athletics.  And...I wonder if, like some have pointed out, college for these athlete's will no longer be about education (guess it probably isn't already for some of the b-ballers and fooseballers), but it may make it all about making money for most...again, is that bad??

Curious...anyone on here play D1 Football at a major university?  Curious to truly know what they all get.  I have heard what the wrestler's get at a couple major universities and it is pretty sweet.  Can only imagine what it is like for football or basketball.  Again, not saying the athlete's shouldn't get paid per se, just they do get a lot already...as they should.

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23 minutes ago, dman115 said:

So I take it you think athletes are employee's?  Playing sports in college is their "job"?  Their "free" education offer's zero monetary benefit to them post college (talking about major D1 sports)?

Anyway, again I am torn...just don't know how much is to much, or not enough for these athletes.  I have gone back in forth over the years on this topic...some years I am like "Holy crap, I can't believe these guys, or gals can't make money"...then other years I am like "Holy crap, these guys, or gals do get a lot already for playing sports in college".  Not to mention all the other negative factors this could potentially bring to major NCAA athletics.  And...I wonder if, like some have pointed out, college for these athlete's will no longer be about education (guess it probably isn't already for some of the b-ballers and fooseballers), but it may make it all about making money for most...again, is that bad??

Curious...anyone on here play D1 Football at a major university?  Curious to truly know what they all get.  I have heard what the wrestler's get at a couple major universities and it is pretty sweet.  Can only imagine what it is like for football or basketball.  Again, not saying the athlete's shouldn't get paid per se, just they do get a lot already...as they should.

What do the wrestlers get?  I have known multiple time AAs that don't get full scholarships.   I don't think the average FB player gets anything other than the scholarship.  Half the ones in CU/Boulder can't even afford to live in Boulder.

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12 hours ago, ccrider55 said:

Other than the entire purpose of the ncaa is to provide as even a playing field as possible to all members in their various divisions. See: practice time limits, season length, scholarship limits, access to postseason in all sports but D1 FB which actually provides the largest payout to D1 schools and ncaa sees  none of that.

It's awesome you think the purpose of the NCAA is to provide an even playing field for all institutions.  

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14 hours ago, boconnell said:

My point is that in most areas of study, the professors are far better than the students.  That is why the professors and schools make money.  That isn't the case in athletics.  Athletes are better than their coaches and are the ones worth money.  They should be earning.

It has nothing to do with "better" than their coaches - It has to do with how good they are compared to the competition. The better you are compared to the competition, the further you make it in the NCAA tourney the more recognition and more your image is used. That's what generates income .... not "I'm better than my 60 year-old coach Bob Smith."   They don't put guys on the banners... programs... commercials....etc. because they are better than their coach.

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12 hours ago, ccrider55 said:

Other than the entire purpose of the ncaa is to provide as even a playing field as possible to all members in their various divisions. See: practice time limits, season length, scholarship limits, access to postseason in all sports but D1 FB which actually provides the largest payout to D1 schools and ncaa sees  none of that.

 

9 minutes ago, boconnell said:

It's awesome you think the purpose of the NCAA is to provide an even playing field for all institutions.  

"NCAA mission statement is 'to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.' " 

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10 minutes ago, Idaho said:

It has nothing to do with "better" than their coaches - It has to do with how good they are compared to the competition. The better you are compared to the competition, the further you make it in the NCAA tourney the more recognition and more your image is used. That's what generates income .... not "I'm better than my 60 year-old coach Bob Smith."   They don't put guys on the banners... programs... commercials....etc. because they are better than their coach.

When deciding whether to pay the coaches or the players, it should matter who is actually better.  Right now they pay coaches who can get players, because they can't pay the players.  It is unnatural.  Coaches salaries are artificially inflated by the athletes getting nothing.  In professional sports the best coach makes a fraction of what the top players make.  

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1 hour ago, dman115 said:

So I take it you think athletes are employee's?  Playing sports in college is their "job"?  Their "free" education offer's zero monetary benefit to them post college (talking about major D1 sports)?

Anyway, again I am torn...just don't know how much is to much, or not enough for these athletes.  I have gone back in forth over the years on this topic...some years I am like "Holy crap, I can't believe these guys, or gals can't make money"...then other years I am like "Holy crap, these guys, or gals do get a lot already for playing sports in college".  Not to mention all the other negative factors this could potentially bring to major NCAA athletics.  And...I wonder if, like some have pointed out, college for these athlete's will no longer be about education (guess it probably isn't already for some of the b-ballers and fooseballers), but it may make it all about making money for most...again, is that bad??

Curious...anyone on here play D1 Football at a major university?  Curious to truly know what they all get.  I have heard what the wrestler's get at a couple major universities and it is pretty sweet.  Can only imagine what it is like for football or basketball.  Again, not saying the athlete's shouldn't get paid per se, just they do get a lot already...as they should.

I don't have an opinion on whether they are employees or not. I was reacting to your suggestion that they were being compensated through scholarship.

For name, image and likeness they do not necessarily have to be considered employees as the cash flow can come from non-university sources. Fame can be monetized through endorsements or through selling advertising on influencer channels. Money can also be made through paid access to unique content (Rokfin, Flo, etc.). After the attempt by Northwestern football players to unionize under the argument that they are employees, Northwestern changed their advertising. Where they used to feature specific, recognizable players wearing their jersey in their print ads they now show a nameless, faceless player (complete with opaque plastic face shield), wearing an unassigned number to avoid any issues with name, image, or likeness. In this way the universities can avoid having to make NIL payments or claims that players are employees, so the real issue then becomes why do the universities or the NCAA have the right to restrict the players' ability to make money outside of the university? 

If universities/the NCAA want to argue for restricting the athletes' outside payment options like an employer often does (my employer restricts outside business activities, for example) then they are likely acknowledging their employment status, and as we saw in the Northwestern case they clearly do not want to do that. So instead they rely on the umbrella protection the NCAA offers them and refer to the NCAA rules against the activities. 

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39 minutes ago, Idaho said:

 

"NCAA mission statement is 'to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.' " 

I don't think the NCAA has a mission statement. That appears to be from a mission-statement.com post that goes on to say "NCAA has not set an official vision statement so far."

But if you read the NCAA Division 1 manual you find things like: 

1.3.1 Basic Purpose. [*] The competitive athletics programs of member institutions are designed to be a vital part of the educational system. A basic purpose of this Association is to maintain intercollegiate athletics as an integral part of the educational program and the athlete as an integral part of the student body and, by so doing, retain a clear line of demarcation between intercollegiate athletics and professional sports.

No mention of level playing fields, equitability, etc. 

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Let's be CLEAR.  The College Athlete is NOT getting screwed.  They WILLINGLY sign a CONTRACT with said College knowing EXACTLY what they get going in.  If they don't want the free education and think they are more valuable there are ways to skip it and/or go overseas in Basketball and go get paid and then enter the draft.  Football hurts more, since they require you to be 3 years out of High School before being draft eligible, but play well in College and you BUILD your stock.  Other than Football and Basketball a MINUTE portion of College Athletes are losing out on real revenue due to NCAA Regulations.

Now, with that said, i am fine with them getting paid off their image/likeness as long as it can be separated from the University.  Simply put, other than Free Education, Room and Board, Food, quite a bit of clothing and the INEVITABLE Networking avenue for career opportunities outside the sport, I  DO NOT see the Colleges/Universities owing athletes ANYTHING else........

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10 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Let's be CLEAR.  The College Athlete is NOT getting screwed.  They WILLINGLY sign a CONTRACT with said College knowing EXACTLY what they get going in.  If they don't want the free education and think they are more valuable there are ways to skip it and/or go overseas in Basketball and go get paid and then enter the draft.  Football hurts more, since they require you to be 3 years out of High School before being draft eligible, but play well in College and you BUILD your stock.  Other than Football and Basketball a MINUTE portion of College Athletes are losing out on real revenue due to NCAA Regulations.

Now, with that said, i am fine with them getting paid off their image/likeness as long as it can be separated from the University.  Simply put, other than Free Education, Room and Board, Food, quite a bit of clothing and the INEVITABLE Networking avenue for career opportunities outside the sport, I  DO NOT see the Colleges/Universities owing athletes ANYTHING else........

For normal non revenue sports I agree. But for the football and bb players I have trouble finding issue with them getting paid. They make the NCAA and their schools literal billions. Billions that don’t exist without them 

 

and many kids don’t actually know what they’re getting into

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7 minutes ago, jp157 said:

For normal non revenue sports I agree. But for the football and bb players I have trouble finding issue with them getting paid. They make the NCAA and their schools literal billions. Billions that don’t exist without them 

 

and many kids don’t actually know what they’re getting into

Please list a specific "school"/university that is bringing in a billion $s so we can research where the money goes.  ;_;

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