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BuckyBadger

Trans Weightlifter to be in Olympics

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Who has been cancelled? All I can find when looking this up are op-eds opposing it. Seems like you're in the majority, but are acting like you're in the minority. I probably side with you overall. It looks like the governing bodies are putting some restrictions in place like requiring at least a year of hormone therapy, but that doesn't fully take away the physical advantage. 

Off the top of my head, J.K. Rowling was "cancelled". She basically said that she loves those who are trans but just didn't want them not to be placed in the same category as women because it takes away from the struggles those who were born female face. She was subsequently called a lot of names and people who had been her fans for years said they wished they could take it back. They felt like J.K. Rowling's books stood up for the underdog and then she went back on this by not saying that those who transitioned to female should be labelled the same as those who were born female. Personally, I thought like her words were taken a bit out of context and those who didn't actually read what she really said just made the claim that she was anti-trans. There were op-eds and you can define cancelled however you want but when a large portion of your fans decide they will boycott your books/movies I would consider that being cancelled. https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2

 

That doesn't relate directly to sports however.

To bring this back to wrestling, recently I'm not sure if there have been any trans wrestlers outside of the one from Texas who made the news. However, there was a Male to Female trans athlete who competed in a US Open I attended in maybe about 2010. Does anyone remember this? I was surprised that this person didn't actually do all that well even though she appeared to have a better frame and physique. I think it was in one of the heavier weights but I don't recall the name or how much experience they had prior to that tournament.

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6 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Does she meet the criteria to compete in the Olympics? Yes.

End of story. 

Just because someone meets the criteria doesn’t mean the criteria make sense.

Testosterone levels alone do not account for bone structure, muscle mass etc.

It’s an arbitrary criteria someone came up with that clearly doesn’t even the playing field.

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2 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

Just because someone meets the criteria doesn’t mean the criteria make sense.

Testosterone levels alone do not account for bone structure, muscle mass etc.

It’s an arbitrary criteria someone came up with that clearly doesn’t even the playing field.

Why do you say it doesn't even the playing field?  Laurel Hubbard has a poor shot at winning a medal. let alone gold.  Which athlete is a favorite going in?

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9 hours ago, Relentless125 said:

Off the top of my head, J.K. Rowling was "cancelled". She basically said that she loves those who are trans but just didn't want them not to be placed in the same category as women because it takes away from the struggles those who were born female face. She was subsequently called a lot of names and people who had been her fans for years said they wished they could take it back. They felt like J.K. Rowling's books stood up for the underdog and then she went back on this by not saying that those who transitioned to female should be labelled the same as those who were born female. Personally, I thought like her words were taken a bit out of context and those who didn't actually read what she really said just made the claim that she was anti-trans. There were op-eds and you can define cancelled however you want but when a large portion of your fans decide they will boycott your books/movies I would consider that being cancelled. https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2

 

That doesn't relate directly to sports however.

To bring this back to wrestling, recently I'm not sure if there have been any trans wrestlers outside of the one from Texas who made the news. However, there was a Male to Female trans athlete who competed in a US Open I attended in maybe about 2010. Does anyone remember this? I was surprised that this person didn't actually do all that well even though she appeared to have a better frame and physique. I think it was in one of the heavier weights but I don't recall the name or how much experience they had prior to that tournament.

Well, the first thing I'd say to this is that JK Rowling is a billionaire. If getting called mean names by former fans while keeping all of your wealth and influence is being "cancelled" then sign me up. She's still selling just as many books as ever.

Also, Rowling has gone out of her way to stoke controversy on this issue. This wasn't one tweet out of context. She often went on rants on the issue and the more people tried to push back (pretty politely at first), the more she not only doubled down, but purposely started using language and arguments she knew would stoke the fire. For example, her new novel is about a male serial killer who dresses up like a woman to stalk to his victims, pretty clearly alluding to the argument that trans women are predators. I think it's a little rich to complain at that point. 

There's also a larger context to this. There is a large TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist) movement in the UK and Rowling is one of the most visible proponents. Members of this movement often call trans people mentally ill predators. Emotions around this are really intense. 

I think this whole "cancel culture" thing is so overblown at this point. It's largely been overblown by journalists/writers who are trying to elevate the worst part of their daily experience (getting yelled at on twitter) into a serious societal issue. It has no real effect on the lives of 99% of people.

 

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28 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Why do you say it doesn't even the playing field?  Laurel Hubbard has a poor shot at winning a medal. let alone gold.  Which athlete is a favorite going in?

According to the article Laurel Hubbard is in fact a medal contender….as a 43 year old biological male who got testosterone levels down to the accepted level. Case in point.

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8 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

Just because someone meets the criteria doesn’t mean the criteria make sense.

Testosterone levels alone do not account for bone structure, muscle mass etc.

It’s an arbitrary criteria someone came up with that clearly doesn’t even the playing field.

It's the exact opposite of arbitrary. There are specific guidelines and criteria that needs to be met for the IOC to let her compete. She meets them. It's not arbitrary. She meets the criteria and is playing by the rules the IOC set. It's a non issue. 

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No argument that Hubbard meets the IOC criteria. The argument is that the Testosterone criteria is arbitrary and not rooted in any sort of evidence or real scientific research.  

More detail on this:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/21/olympics-tokyo-laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

IOC’s decision has recently come under fire after scientific papers were published which said that people who have undergone male puberty retain significant advantages, including in power and strength, even after taking medication to suppress their testosterone levels.

Last year, the scientists Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg found that the male performance advantage in weightlifting was 30% when compared to women. Their research indicated that even when transgender women suppressed testosterone for 12 months, the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength was only around 5%.“

This simply confirms the obvious. Males and females are in different categories for biological reasons, testosterone levels are not the equalizer.

To say someone meets the criteria, case closed, but not question the criteria itself is a cop out.

 

Edited by BuckyBadger

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No difference from that African runner who basically got banned for having naturally high levels. What can you do really? She meets the criteria so it's not an issue. I don't see some rush of men switching genders to achieve athletic glory as women. 

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34 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

No difference from that African runner who basically got banned for having naturally high levels. What can you do really? She meets the criteria so it's not an issue. I don't see some rush of men switching genders to achieve athletic glory as women. 

You will always be able to find some anomaly where the rules aren’t a good fit (like the runner). That’s not really the problem in this case. Now we have people changing their hormone levels, apparently with the IOC’s blessing, so they can meet the rules. Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation.

Edited by BuckyBadger

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Well considering how the mma fighter, the D3 bb player, and now this weight lifter have gone from…  mediocre to average “male” competitors.. to the top 10% or better of “women’s competitors..… (those are top of head examples). On top of the other info… a few things seem apparent. 

1. It’s not as “simple” as “da hormone levels”. A 43 year old who we are assuming is not juicing is a medal contender in women’s and not in men’s .. and for most top tier athletes.. mid thirties is “old”.. I’m genuinely curious as to how “she” did in her “male” age group much less Olympic level 

2. It is an issue that shouldn’t just be hand waved away with the “don’t be prejudice” argument 

3. Many actual women competitors are irritated by this and how it can potentially negate their years of hard work

4. Right wing pundits most definitely overblow the issue that isn’t “that common” to create moral outrage and to keep their base riled up. Hardcore lefties are making it easy by trying to hand wave any discussion as prejudice . 
 

One must be honest… from both ends about this issue. 
 

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Well considering how the mma fighter, the D3 bb player, and now this weight lifter have gone from…  mediocre to average “male” competitors.. to the top 10% or better of “women’s competitors..… (those are top of head examples). On top of the other info… a few things seem apparent. 

From wikipedia- Before her transition, Hubbard competed in men's events, setting national records in junior competition, according to The Associated Press.

I wouldn't say that was mediocre to average.

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11 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Why do you say it doesn't even the playing field?  Laurel Hubbard has a poor shot at winning a medal. let alone gold.  Which athlete is a favorite going in?

Suppose a steroid user fails to AA. I'm sure many have. Is steroid use therefore not cheating?

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

From wikipedia- Before her transition, Hubbard competed in men's events, setting national records in junior competition, according to The Associated Press.

I wouldn't say that was mediocre to average.

Junior? Are the age groups the same as wrestling?

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5 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

You will always be able to find some anomaly where the rules aren’t a good fit (like the runner). That’s not really the problem in this case. Now we have people changing their hormone levels, apparently with the IOC’s blessing, so they can meet the rules. Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation.

Will it? Are you suggesting that average male athletes are going to become trans just to compete? 

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4 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Junior? Are the age groups the same as wrestling?

I would guess so. Those were set in the late 90's. She quit shortly after and has since said she first got into weightlifting as a way to force herself to be more masculine. She transitioned in 2012 and didn't start competing again until 2017.

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5 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

You will always be able to find some anomaly where the rules aren’t a good fit (like the runner). That’s not really the problem in this case. Now we have people changing their hormone levels, apparently with the IOC’s blessing, so they can meet the rules. Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation.

I don't see a rush of guys switching genders to achieve athletic success. Do you?

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38 minutes ago, Weems said:

Suppose a steroid user fails to AA. I'm sure many have. Is steroid use therefore not cheating?

This is a false equivalency. Steroid use is always cheating.   Saying that the field isn't level requires some evidence or rationale.

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36 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

I don't see a rush of guys switching genders to achieve athletic success. Do you?

No, but I think it’s important not to overlook this just because there aren’t a rush of guys doing it. Who knows what it will be like in four years from now?

Forget IOC criteria for a second, do you think biological men with lower testosterone levels competing against women is fair? What if it was boxing, would you be ok with it?

Edited by BuckyBadger

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

I would guess so. Those were set in the late 90's. She quit shortly after and has since said she first got into weightlifting as a way to force herself to be more masculine. She transitioned in 2012 and didn't start competing again until 2017.

So you don’t see any issue with a 43 year old after a long lay off becoming a senior level world class athlete in 3 years? 
 

Do you think she would have been able to be competitive for a senior level medal if she stayed a male? Yes or no?

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3 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

No, but I think it’s important not to overlook this just because there aren’t a rush of guys doing it. Who knows what it will be like in four years from now?

Forget IOC criteria for a second, do you think biological men with lower testosterone levels competing against women is fair? What if it was boxing, would you be ok with it?

Won't happen. This is so overblown. The only time I think stuff like that could happen regularly is if some shady countries made men undergo the conversion to win medals. Which a few countries, North Korea, China, wouldn't be that surprising. I still don't see a run on guys deciding to live a life of being publicly ridiculed just to possibly achieve success in sports that don't pay much. 

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8 hours ago, jp157 said:

So you don’t see any issue with a 43 year old after a long lay off becoming a senior level world class athlete in 3 years? 
 

Do you think she would have been able to be competitive for a senior level medal if she stayed a male? Yes or no?

I was just answering a question about her past junior level success.

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7 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Won't happen. This is so overblown. The only time I think stuff like that could happen regularly is if some shady countries made men undergo the conversion to win medals. Which a few countries, North Korea, China, wouldn't be that surprising. I still don't see a run on guys deciding to live a life of being publicly ridiculed just to possibly achieve success in sports that don't pay much. 

The financial incentives for athletes in some of the poorer countries can be enormous - Also this "transition" can be done strictly by making a declaration and taking some hormone suppressors for a while.  There is no requirement any type of real transition surgery that removes male genitalia. I do not think that people born as males should be allowed to compete in female sports in any case due to unfair advantages their male birth provides  But if the IOC or other sports groups are going to allow that at the very least a full surgical transition should have been completed.  

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