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BuckyBadger

Trans Weightlifter to be in Olympics

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7 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Won't happen. This is so overblown. The only time I think stuff like that could happen regularly is if some shady countries made men undergo the conversion to win medals. Which a few countries, North Korea, China, wouldn't be that surprising. I still don't see a run on guys deciding to live a life of being publicly ridiculed just to possibly achieve success in sports that don't pay much. 

Since you didn’t answer my question, it sounds like you’re saying this isn’t fair but the concerns are overblown, so just forget about it? Or you have no problem with people competing as the opposite gender?

Edited by BuckyBadger

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23 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I was just answering a question about her past junior level success.

He’s the first one I’ve seen that didn’t go fro mediocre male to top level female overnight, Even with that acknowledged. He’s a medal contender at age 43

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This is an evolving issue.  I don't understand long term effects of testosterone or bone structures or any of the other issues.  Doesn't look like anybody does either, despite a whole bunch of claims to the contrary.

It is mostly a political issue at this point.  The right doesn't like it and they shed crocodile tears for female athletes when in fact they hate trans people.  The left wants to make it a civil rights issue with no consideration for sporting consequence.  I can't say I feel informed enough to have an opinion on the core issue.

I do know Caster Semenya is collateral damage.  She is who she is and it is a travesty to demand she be somebody else or disqualify her.

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58 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Got any examples? lol

Here are more examples:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andraya_Yearwood

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents on September 13, 2014, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round.” 


If this doesn’t convince you then nothing will. This is real and is happening. You can pretend it isn’t because of your politics.

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1 hour ago, BuckyBadger said:

Laurel Hubbard lol

 

21 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Here are more examples:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andraya_Yearwood

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents on September 13, 2014, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round.” 


If this doesn’t convince you then nothing will. This is real and is happening. You can pretend it isn’t because of your politics.

Ah, so just a reading comprehension issue on your part. None of these people transitioned for the purpose of competing in sports. They transitioned because they were trans. They also wanted to keep competing in the sports they love. That's a tough issue to solve.

The over the top paranoid thinking that all of a sudden hundreds or thousands of men are going to go through the incredibly expensive, difficult, painful, traumatizing, etc.. experience of transitioning, opening themselves up to all sorts of discrimination and reduced economic outcomes, just so they can compete in niche sports as women, knowing full well that most of society isn't going to credit that success in the first place, is ridiculous.

Trans people exist. Many of them like playing sports. It's not a grand conspiracy.

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Where are you getting this conspiracy nonesense? Every instance I’ve listed is an actual example that you don’t even respond to.

It’s not about hundreds of thousands of men identifying as women to compete. This is about fairness on the playing field here and now, and in the future.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Where are you getting this conspiracy nonesense? Every instance I’ve listed is an actual example that you don’t even respond to.

It’s not about hundreds of thousands of men identifying as women to compete. This is about fairness on the playing field here and now, and in the future.

 

 

"Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation."

Then you suggested that average male competitors are going to transition, not because they're actually trans, but so they can have more athletic success. 

It's ludicrous. None of the examples you showed fit that criteria. What will actually happen is isolated cases of trans people who want to continue competing post-transition. You're not going to see a 100M Olympic final of 10 men in wigs. Transitioning is a physically and emotionally arduous journey that nobody undergoes just for funsies. That's just scaremongering.

Edited by uncle bernard

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Trans people exist. Many of them like playing sports. It's not a grand conspiracy.

This is not in question.  The Fallon Fox issue is very real, and is an example of poor consideration and regulation.  You can do whatever you want with your body, but there are many scenarios where your preferences, choices, decisions, etc disqualify you from sport.  Many trans individuals acknowledge and understand the sticky situation that their transitions create in the face of modern sport structure.  None discuss, analyze and address this better than Janae Marie Kroc.   If you are looking for a very thoughtful approach from an individual navigating their own male —> female transition in a very open and candid fashion free of dogmatic positions, Janae Marie’s is the best out their.

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41 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

"Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation."

Then you suggested that average male competitors are going to transition, not because they're actually trans, but so they can have more athletic success. 

It's ludicrous. None of the examples you showed fit that criteria. What will actually happen is isolated cases of trans people who want to continue competing post-transition. You're not going to see a 100M Olympic final of 10 men in wigs. Transitioning is a physically and emotionally arduous journey that nobody undergoes just for funsies. That's just scaremongering.

I think you are getting stuck on details. At the heart of the issue is men competing as women. Setting aside whether it happens on a small scale or large scale you either think the testosterone criteria evens the playing field or it doesn’t.

I’ve listed a number of examples which I think show the criteria is arbitrary. Ultimately it makes a mockery of women’s sports. You can keep trying to twist this into something else.

 

 

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

"Unchallenged, that will lead to all sorts of manipulation."

Then you suggested that average male competitors are going to transition, not because they're actually trans, but so they can have more athletic success. 

It's ludicrous. None of the examples you showed fit that criteria. What will actually happen is isolated cases of trans people who want to continue competing post-transition. You're not going to see a 100M Olympic final of 10 men in wigs. Transitioning is a physically and emotionally arduous journey that nobody undergoes just for funsies. That's just scaremongering.

I said earlier. Obviously the right wing over blows the issue into a red/rainbow scare. There won’t be a wave of wig wearing runners. That being fully understood and acknowledged. 
 

It can’t just be hand waved either. The examples/data we do actually have.. show mediocre or old past prime male athletes becoming instant top contenders as Females..

that point above is where I get irritated with the whole discussion… while not enough data to draw a reasonable scientific conclusion.. yet.. it’s enough to make it that it’s not something that can be hand waved away… 

Additionally. Don’t be so quick to just dismiss the possibility of people doing it for a competitive edge or for the game and support .. especially since it’s a well known phenomenon in schools for socially isolated kids to come out as trans or for waves of friends to do so as well. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jp157 said:

I said earlier. Obviously the right wing over blows the issue into a red/rainbow scare. There won’t be a wave of wig wearing runners. That being fully understood and acknowledged. 
 

It can’t just be hand waved either. The examples/data we do actually have.. show mediocre or old past prime male athletes becoming instant top contenders as Females..

that point above is where I get irritated with the whole discussion… while not enough data to draw a reasonable scientific conclusion.. yet.. it’s enough to make it that it’s not something that can be hand waved away… 

Additionally. Don’t be so quick to just dismiss the possibility of people doing it for a competitive edge or for the game and support .. especially since it’s a well known phenomenon in schools for socially isolated kids to come out as trans or for waves of friends to do so as well. 

 

 

 

You lost me at the last sentence, but I think we're mostly in the same place. If it were up to me, I would probably say no to allowing them to compete.

Where I get a little sensitive is how easily I see reasonable concern escalate into "trans women are predators" narrative online. We can agree to disagree, but I sincerely doubt we'll ever see a trend of male athletes transitioning for a competitive advantage.

I just wish this issue wasn't elevated to the culture war status it has been. One, it's not statistically significant. And two, it's not fair to reasonable people on both sides when zealots use it for their own culture war ends.

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57 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

This is not in question.  The Fallon Fox issue is very real, and is an example of poor consideration and regulation.  You can do whatever you want with your body, but there are many scenarios where your preferences, choices, decisions, etc disqualify you from sport.  Many trans individuals acknowledge and understand the sticky situation that their transitions create in the face of modern sport structure.  None discuss, analyze and address this better than Janae Marie Kroc.   If you are looking for a very thoughtful approach from an individual navigating their own male —> female transition in a very open and candid fashion free of dogmatic positions, Janae Marie’s is the best out their.

Kroc is extremely cool. Still haven't gotten around to watching her documentary, but I've been meaning to.

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Just now, uncle bernard said:

You lost me at the last sentence, but I think we're mostly in the same place. If it were up to me, I would probably say no to allowing them to compete.

Where I get a little sensitive is how easily I see reasonable concern escalate into "trans women are predators" narrative online. We can agree to disagree, but I sincerely doubt we'll ever see a trend of male athletes transitioning for a competitive advantage.

I just wish this issue wasn't elevated to the culture war status it has been. One, it's not statistically significant. And two, it's not fair to reasonable people on both sides when zealots use it for their own culture war ends.

Fair enough. And I think it’s still cheating women who’ve worked very hard for their accomplishments 

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22 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Steroid use is always cheating.

Even when it doesn't lead to success. Likewise for male physiology. There have been studies about muscle mass, strength, etc. But we can use common sense here--it's not like there's an injection to make basketball players shorter, for instance. 

On 6/26/2021 at 1:37 PM, TripNSweep said:

I don't see some rush of men switching genders to achieve athletic glory as women. 

The sincerity of the men doesn't change the unfairness to the women.

On 6/26/2021 at 2:00 PM, BuckyBadger said:

You will always be able to find some anomaly where the rules aren’t a good fit (like the runner).

I think it's important to note here that Caster Semenya is 100.0% male. Gonads are the primary sex organs and Semenya has internal testicles. Everything else is secondary, even the rest of the genital apparatus. A male without a wiener is just that. People of testes do not become more male when they go bald or grow chest hair either; sex causes those things but those things do not cause sex. Emphasis on testosterone levels obscures this. A male at 1,000 ng/dL is just as male as one at 800. 

This debate is kind of a waste of time if we keep it within the sports fairness paradigm. OF COURSE a male is more athletic than he would have been female. This whole thing is about sports fairness vs. other values. 

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I can't think of a single man who has decided to transition to being female to become more successful at sports. There was a trans person who competed at the women's open maybe 10 years ago and placed 5th or 6th. Prior to transitioning they had wrestled D3 I think which was 15 years prior to coming back to wrestle. There's isolated examples but nobody is lining up to be ridiculed and ostracized just for success in sports nobody really watches. 

Seriously though, if you knew you would have a chance to win a world or Olympic championship but had to transition to being female, would you? Do you know anyone who would? 

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There is a real trade-off here between inclusivity in sports, which we presumably agree are beneficial for everyone’s character and lifelong health and well-being, and reasonable fairness to the most competitors possible for the tangible monetary and social benefits of success in athletics. No one I have ever met is arguing that Connor McGregor should be able to take hormone treatment for a year and get into a cage to murder someone in the women’s division. I’m very left, and would be fine banning transitions in striking sports or rugby. That said, I am heartened that even the most opposed in this thread display genuine compassion towards non-binary people and their very real, struggle for acceptance and opportunity in society. I don’t think it would have happened ten years ago

Again, I sort of look at this the same way as I look at doping in general; by that I mean the more dangerous you are to your opponent the more scrutiny there should be wrt enhanced attributes. I’m much more comfortable with an occasional (this isn’t a rampant problem) trans athlete doing well in a sprint or weightlifting event if they are within the testing requirements. Maybe there should be stricter biometric measurements, but a lot of the other reasonable more wholistic requirements are inaccessible to the IOC because many aspects of trans health are restricted by right-wing governments (surgery, legal recognition of gender change, keeping F->M athletes within F divisions).

For the record the current guidelines are:
1)declared gender for 4 years
2)Testosterone requirements

The IOC has been discussing expanded guidance,but ruled that it was unfair to change rules during the ongoing qualification processes, so expect to see new rules after Tokyo


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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

There is a real trade-off here between inclusivity in sports, which we presumably agree are beneficial for everyone’s character and lifelong health and well-being, and reasonable fairness to the most competitors possible for the tangible monetary and social benefits of success in athletics. No one I have ever met is arguing that Connor McGregor should be able to take hormone treatment for a year and get into a cage to murder someone in the women’s division. I’m very left, and would be fine banning transitions in striking sports or rugby. That said, I am heartened that even the most opposed in this thread display genuine compassion towards non-binary people and their very real, struggle for acceptance and opportunity in society. I don’t think it would have happened ten years ago

Again, I sort of look at this the same way as I look at doping in general; by that I mean the more dangerous you are to your opponent the more scrutiny there should be wrt enhanced attributes. I’m much more comfortable with an occasional (this isn’t a rampant problem) trans athlete doing well in a sprint or weightlifting event if they are within the testing requirements. Maybe there should be stricter biometric measurements, but a lot of the other reasonable more wholistic requirements are inaccessible to the IOC because many aspects of trans health are restricted by right-wing governments (surgery, legal recognition of gender change, keeping F->M athletes within F divisions).

For the record the current guidelines are:
1)declared gender for 4 years
2)Testosterone requirements

The IOC has been discussing expanded guidance,but ruled that it was unfair to change rules during the ongoing qualification processes, so expect to see new rules after Tokyo


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No one is trying to deny transgender woman the right to participate in sports.  They should be able to participate against other people who were born as males.  Participating against those who were born as females gives them way to much of a physical advantage vs the competition.  This applies to track as much as to MMA although the danger to the opponent is not an issue.  I expect that the advantaged they have exceeds that gained by naturally born women taking banned PEDs.  It is certainly hard to quantify the level of advantage but in track you can see just how far down the best woman competitors are in terms of times vs the men.  Many of the best high school boys and virtually all of the college men in any divisions will have better times than the most elite women competitors.  There are many on the side of allowing transgender athletes  to compete in this country do not want any limits similar to what the IOC is imposing.  Their position is that people can compete as any gender they identify as with no limitations (as happened here in CT with the track State Champions noted in the article posted by Bucky Badger) 

One of the best known Transgender woman in this country today used to be an excellent male athlete in Track and Field.   As great as Bruce Jenner was in 1976 I think she would admit that he would have had virtually zero chance to make the US Olympic team in any of the 10 individual events that make up the decathlon on the men's team.  However had Bruce at that time been able to just identify as a woman and compete in the Olympics then she would have won every event that matches up directly - 100 m, 400 m, long jump, and high jump with the exception of the 1500 m (BJ's time was 7 seconds off the GM women's time)  Jenner's javelin throw was also further than the GM women's throw despite him using a heavier javelin.  I have no doubt  that adjusting for the heavier weights used in discus and shot put she would have won those events also.  The same could be said for the 100m Hurdle race for women (vs 110 m HH for men with higher hurdles.)   The women didn't compete in Pole Vault at that time but it would take until after the 2000 Olympics for women to Pole Vault as high as Jenner did in 1976.  Bottom line is if he had been allowed to "transition" just by identifying as female Jenner would have been favored to win 9 of 10 events at the Olympics and might have had a shot at making it 10 of 10.  Those of us who watched his performance in Montreal remember he was coasting a bit in the 1500m as that was the last event and he had the Decathlon GM pretty much wrapped up.   It is completely unfair to allow people born as males to compete in athletics against those born female.

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No one is trying to deny transgender woman the right to participate in sports.  They should be able to participate against other people who were born as males.  Participating against those who were born as females gives them way to much of a physical advantage vs the competition.  This applies to track as much as to MMA although the danger to the opponent is not an issue.  I expect that the advantaged they have exceeds that gained by naturally born women taking banned PEDs.  It is certainly hard to quantify the level of advantage but in track you can see just how far down the best woman competitors are in terms of times vs the men.  Many of the best high school boys and virtually all of the college men in any divisions will have better times than the most elite women competitors.  There are many on the side of allowing transgender athletes  to compete in this country do not want any limits similar to what the IOC is imposing.  Their position is that people can compete as any gender they identify as with no limitations (as happened here in CT with the track State Champions noted in the article posted by Bucky Badger) 
One of the best known Transgender woman in this country today used to be an excellent male athlete in Track and Field.   As great as Bruce Jenner was in 1976 I think she would admit that he would have had virtually zero chance to make the US Olympic team in any of the 10 individual events that make up the decathlon on the men's team.  However had Bruce at that time been able to just identify as a woman and compete in the Olympics then she would have won every event that matches up directly - 100 m, 400 m, long jump, and high jump with the exception of the 1500 m (BJ's time was 7 seconds off the GM women's time)  Jenner's javelin throw was also further than the GM women's throw despite him using a heavier javelin.  I have no doubt  that adjusting for the heavier weights used in discus and shot put she would have won those events also.  The same could be said for the 100m Hurdle race for women (vs 110 m HH for men with higher hurdles.)   The women didn't compete in Pole Vault at that time but it would take until after the 2000 Olympics for women to Pole Vault as high as Jenner did in 1976.  Bottom line is if he had been allowed to "transition" just by identifying as female Jenner would have been favored to win 9 of 10 events at the Olympics and might have had a shot at making it 10 of 10.  Those of us who watched his performance in Montreal remember he was coasting a bit in the 1500m as that was the last event and he had the Decathlon GM pretty much wrapped up.   It is completely unfair to allow people born as males to compete in athletics against those born female.

Wait. The Bruce Jenner who used PEDs?

This is the person you’re holding up on a pedestal?


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On 6/27/2021 at 11:33 AM, BuckyBadger said:

Where are you getting this conspiracy nonesense? Every instance I’ve listed is an actual example that you don’t even respond to.

It’s not about hundreds of thousands of men identifying as women to compete. This is about fairness on the playing field here and now, and in the future.

 

 

It's about thousands of women getting shunted because a very small set of people have an obvious natural born advantage.  Any decent D1 wrestler will be World Champ if they transition.   The entire process would be too ugly to watch. Imagine Gilman taking on the Women's World Champion - No one wants to see that. 

I don't have the solution but I think this has the potential to hurt Women's sports.   

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8 hours ago, Le duke said:


Wait. The Bruce Jenner who used PEDs?

This is the person you’re holding up on a pedestal?


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I am not putting anyone on a pedestal  - I am pointing out obvious facts about how far ahead of the best female athletes in the world Jenner was in every event (except the 1500 m) in 1976.  If he were allowed to transition then as he has decided to do in his old age he would have dominated all of those events against female competition.  The same thing could be done by any decent male athlete who decides he wants to identify as female and compete against women.

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9 hours ago, TFBJR said:

It's about thousands of women getting shunted because a very small set of people have an obvious natural born advantage.  Any decent D1 wrestler will be World Champ if they transition.   The entire process would be too ugly to watch. Imagine Gilman taking on the Women's World Champion - No one wants to see that. 

I don't have the solution but I think this has the potential to hurt Women's sports.   

But how often does that actually happen? I can't think of anyone who has thought that since they can't achieve their goals wrestling or competing with men, that they decide to put that on hold in order to undergo a painful and complex surgery that permanently changes your body, not to mention dealing with the psychological effects, and the social issues, all in order to win at a sport barely anyone except hard core fans watch or follow, for almost no money. 

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2 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

But how often does that actually happen? I can't think of anyone who has thought that since they can't achieve their goals wrestling or competing with men, that they decide to put that on hold in order to undergo a painful and complex surgery that permanently changes your body, not to mention dealing with the psychological effects, and the social issues, all in order to win at a sport barely anyone except hard core fans watch or follow, for almost no money. 

So no big deal if we get the occasional trans medalist in women’s sports as long as the numbers are low?

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