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BuckyBadger

Trans Weightlifter to be in Olympics

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7 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

But how often does that actually happen? I can't think of anyone who has thought that since they can't achieve their goals wrestling or competing with men, that they decide to put that on hold in order to undergo a painful and complex surgery that permanently changes your body, not to mention dealing with the psychological effects, and the social issues, all in order to win at a sport barely anyone except hard core fans watch or follow, for almost no money. 

 Who said anything about motivation?  Definitely not me.   You're making an argument you can win and then dunking on it.  All fun and games but don't quote me for your credibility.  

I would always assume motivation to be the same as everyone, the love of competition. My points still stand. 

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9 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

But how often does that actually happen? I can't think of anyone who has thought that since they can't achieve their goals wrestling or competing with men, that they decide to put that on hold in order to undergo a painful and complex surgery that permanently changes your body, not to mention dealing with the psychological effects, and the social issues, all in order to win at a sport barely anyone except hard core fans watch or follow, for almost no money. 

T & S - don't you understand that no surgery is required to compete at the NCAA level, in many State Championships or at the Olympic level.  The Olympic level does put some constraints in terms of getting testosterone levels below a certain level which can be done with drugs.  These Trans women can be competing with fully functional male genitalia. In high school in CT (and many other states) all that is required is for the athlete to declare his identity as female and he is in without any physical change whatsoever.

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3 hours ago, TFBJR said:

 Who said anything about motivation?  Definitely not me.   You're making an argument you can win and then dunking on it.  All fun and games but don't quote me for your credibility.  

I would always assume motivation to be the same as everyone, the love of competition. My points still stand. 

The point is, I don't think that many, if any, people are going to go through all that. Especially for a niche sport that only gets mainstream attention in an Olympic year. I would understand if there was some financial incentive, but there really isn't. Not one that would offset the costs and be worth the aggravation and issues that becoming a trans person would entail. 

That's why it's a non issue. 

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I’m aware of the fear mongering and over exaggerating.. 

 

The problem is that.. including the athlete responsible for the thread. The concrete examples we do have are of mediocre or old male athletes becoming top level women’s athletes. 
 

People talking about the “percentage” keep addressing it from the standpoint of the entire population as a whole. Not the population of athletes. 
 

It’s the same thing with bear attacks. If the data is used against US population. Bear attacks are miniscule. If just using population of campers and hikers who are where the bears actually are… the percentages go up. 
 

Like someone said earlier. The advantage given to the trans is not in doubt.. the question is whether you think taking away women’s athletic dreams for the sake of inclusivity is worth it. 

If so. Be honest about what it is. 
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, jp157 said:

I’m aware of the fear mongering and over exaggerating.. 

 

The problem is that.. including the athlete responsible for the thread. The concrete examples we do have are of mediocre or old male athletes becoming top level women’s athletes. 
 

People talking about the “percentage” keep addressing it from the standpoint of the entire population as a whole. Not the population of athletes. 
 

It’s the same thing with bear attacks. If the data is used against US population. Bear attacks are miniscule. If just using population of campers and hikers who are where the bears actually are… the percentages go up. 
 

Like someone said earlier. The advantage given to the trans is not in doubt.. the question is whether you think taking away women’s athletic dreams for the sake of inclusivity is worth it. 

If so. Be honest about what it is. 
 

 

 

It happens so rarely though. Remember when people made a big deal about that kid in Texas who was forced into wrestling against girls because of the state rules? Nothing happened. It was an anomaly. 

The case that started this stupidity off in Arizona wasn't even about somebody transgender. It was about the daughter of a borderline hate group being mad because her team lost to a team that had a non feminine looking girl. If this was something that happened regularly, ok fine change the rules. But it happens so rarely that there's no point. I can't think of anyone who decided to undergo the process just to succeed at sports. Much less a sport that few people watch or care about that doesn't have a professional league or financial incentive. 

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7 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

It happens so rarely though. Remember when people made a big deal about that kid in Texas who was forced into wrestling against girls because of the state rules? Nothing happened. It was an anomaly. 

The case that started this stupidity off in Arizona wasn't even about somebody transgender. It was about the daughter of a borderline hate group being mad because her team lost to a team that had a non feminine looking girl. If this was something that happened regularly, ok fine change the rules. But it happens so rarely that there's no point. I can't think of anyone who decided to undergo the process just to succeed at sports. Much less a sport that few people watch or care about that doesn't have a professional league or financial incentive. 

Everyone knew the Texas kid was trying to compete in boys division and not allowed to. The state basically sanctioned them using steroids while competing against born women. 
 

Its rare.. so far.. but it still happens. And even if there isn’t a wave of it happening. In the cases it does.. you’re going to women have their hard work and athletic dream dashed by someone still retaining the vast majority of the physical advantages of their birth gender. 
 

For your inclusivity. They are acceptable sacrifices. Not everyone is going to agree. 
 

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On 6/29/2021 at 5:22 PM, TFBJR said:

It's about thousands of women getting shunted because a very small set of people have an obvious natural born advantage.  Any decent D1 wrestler will be World Champ if they transition.   The entire process would be too ugly to watch. Imagine Gilman taking on the Women's World Champion - No one wants to see that. 

I don't have the solution but I think this has the potential to hurt Women's sports.   

I’m not sure it even has to be that caliber. I was a very average hs athlete at best. My sister went on to play division 2 basketball,  had a handful of small division 1 offers, and tons of rewards and success in multiple sports in highschool. 
 

We step on the court and play we usually split our games. From my experiences, you could potentially have a lot of average male athletes taking those scholarships of highly athletic females.

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10 hours ago, Rk_Kerk said:

I’m not sure it even has to be that caliber. I was a very average hs athlete at best. My sister went on to play division 2 basketball,  had a handful of small division 1 offers, and tons of rewards and success in multiple sports in highschool. 
 

We step on the court and play we usually split our games. From my experiences, you could potentially have a lot of average male athletes taking those scholarships of highly athletic females.

How many guys are transitioning to being female for athletic success? Go ahead, I'll wait. 

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1 hour ago, TripNSweep said:

How many guys are transitioning to being female for athletic success? Go ahead, I'll wait. 

Enough that it matters. The issue isn’t whether x number of guys do it. You only need one Laurel Hubbard to win which ruins it for all the other female competitors.

Edited by BuckyBadger

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3 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Enough that it matters. The issue isn’t whether x number of guys do it. You only need one Laurel Hubbard to win which ruins it for all the other female competitors.

Except athletic success was not the reason she transitioned. It's such a rare occurrence that somebody who transitions is an athlete, there's nobody doing it for that purpose. 

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6 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

Except athletic success was not the reason she transitioned. It's such a rare occurrence that somebody who transitions is an athlete, there's nobody doing it for that purpose. 

Motivation is irrelevant, and I’m not really sure why you keep bringing it up. It doesn’t change the fact that a trans female has a built in biological advantage.

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20 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Motivation is irrelevant, and I’m not really sure why you keep bringing it up. It doesn’t change the fact that a trans female has a built in biological advantage.

If that's the case why isn't there an explosion of men going this route for athletic success? You make it sound like that's what's going on. 

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I don’t think I said that. I do think we’ll see numbers increase if people don’t come to their senses and put a stop to this. But that’s different than saying droves of men will identify as women just to compete against them. 
 


 

 

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3 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

I don’t think I said that. I do think we’ll see numbers increase if people don’t come to their senses and put a stop to this. But that’s different than saying droves of men will identify as women just to compete against them. 
 


 

 

I don't see that happening. Let's say Vincenzo Joseph decided tomorrow to identify as a woman. Do you really think, for one, that he would knowing the kind of ridicule and unwanted negative attention he would get and for two, would he be even allowed by USAW. It's not just like people wake up one day and decide to switch gender because of sports. It's an often years long process. That there are so few athletes who began as a different gender than they are currently competing as kind of tells you this isn't some widespread problem that needs to be urgently addressed. 

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5 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

If that's the case why isn't there an explosion of men going this route for athletic success? You make it sound like that's what's going on. 

Probably because most men don't want to become trans women in order to achieve athletic success.  But they are not relevant to the discussion. 

it's those who DO want to do so that are relevant.

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3 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

I don't see that happening. Let's say Vincenzo Joseph decided tomorrow to identify as a woman. Do you really think, for one, that he would knowing the kind of ridicule and unwanted negative attention he would get and for two, would he be even allowed by USAW. It's not just like people wake up one day and decide to switch gender because of sports. It's an often years long process. That there are so few athletes who began as a different gender than they are currently competing as kind of tells you this isn't some widespread problem that needs to be urgently addressed. 

You keep saying the same thing, as if this doesn’t matter until a bunch of men are doing it.

Just answer a simple question. Is the example of Laurel Hubbard fair? If Hubbard wins a medal is it fair to all the biological women in the division?

 

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3 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

You keep saying the same thing, as if this doesn’t matter until a bunch of men are doing it.

Just answer a simple question. Is the example of Laurel Hubbard fair? If Hubbard wins a medal is it fair to all the biological women in the division?

 

Why isn't it fair?  It is not as if women can't compete with her.

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On 6/30/2021 at 12:55 PM, lu1979 said:

T & S - don't you understand that no surgery is required to compete at the NCAA level, in many State Championships or at the Olympic level.  The Olympic level does put some constraints in terms of getting testosterone levels below a certain level which can be done with drugs.  These Trans women can be competing with fully functional male genitalia. In high school in CT (and many other states) all that is required is for the athlete to declare his identity as female and he is in without any physical change whatsoever.

I believe the NCAA requires hormone treatment, but doesn’t require a specific level or something?

If we’re talking about D1 or world-level success the CT sprinters are irrelevant to this as they did no hormone treatment.   You can’t require that in high school, so I do think biological males shouldn’t be allowed to compete in female high school sports.

But I think the testosterone level requirements or something similar may be the best middle ground for the higher levels.   Of course these are levels where it’s going to be hard for an “average” male athlete to transition and compete at a really high level.   An interesting example is the case of June Eastwood on the University of Montana’s XC team.  She started her career on the men’s team, and finished on the women’s.  She was pretty good as a male (a HS state champion), but  didn’t blow everyone away as a female.  Although I’ve seen some claim she sandbagged to avoid the spotlight.

But I could definitely see the argument where male to female transgendered people probably at least shouldn’t be able to compete in combat sports or weightlifting or maybe sprints or basketball where size and strength are major factors.  

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36 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Why isn't it fair?  It is not as if women can't compete with her.

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Why isn’t it fair for biological males that simply alter hormone levels to compete with females?

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3 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Why isn’t it fair for biological males that simply alter hormone levels to compete with females?

That is what I'm asking.  She isn't a true biological male anymore and my understanding is she hasn't been for 9 years.  I ran her numbers.  They are consistent with her peers.  She was lifting considerably more 20 years ago and at a smaller body weight.  Doesn't seem reasonable to chalk any success she might have up to gender supplied testosterone from ten years ago.  Is there a better example to illustrate your point?

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

That is what I'm asking.  She isn't a true biological male anymore and my understanding is she hasn't been for 9 years.  I ran her numbers.  They are consistent with her peers.  She was lifting considerably more 20 years ago and at a smaller body weight.  Doesn't seem reasonable to chalk any success she might have up to gender supplied testosterone from ten years ago.  Is there a better example to illustrate your point?

I posted this earlier in the thread which speaks directly to your point.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/21/olympics-tokyo-laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

”IOC’s decision has recently come under fire after scientific papers were published which said that people who have undergone male puberty retain significant advantages, including in power and strength, even after taking medication to suppress their testosterone levels.

Last year, the scientists Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg found that the male performance advantage in weightlifting was 30% when compared to women. Their research indicated that even when transgender women suppressed testosterone for 12 months, the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength was only around 5%.“

Edited by BuckyBadger

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

That is what I'm asking.  She isn't a true biological male anymore and my understanding is she hasn't been for 9 years.  I ran her numbers.  They are consistent with her peers.  She was lifting considerably more 20 years ago and at a smaller body weight.  Doesn't seem reasonable to chalk any success she might have up to gender supplied testosterone from ten years ago.  Is there a better example to illustrate your point?

Are her competitors in their 40s?

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