Trans Weightlifter to be in Olympics

[jp157 479]

I think a good way to look at this is from a science view danced around so far. Since they don’t have to do any transition beyond identifying and taking hormones.

Biologically.. they are basically the equivalent males suffering from the effects of severe overtraining and Low T.. competing against biological females.

 

And Average male athletes regularly do extremely well against elite females..

 

Also, anyone who know jack squat about powerlifting and the physical realities of female athletics… understands perfectly how much of an advantage having stronger joints and a denser frame would provide…

 

This is why I’m getting irritated … any actual understanding of high level athletics and training. Basic biology . has actually coached both men and women. On top the actual concrete examples we have… makes very clear a male body with low T clearly still retains advantages…

 

People arguing otherwise.. either are ignorant or deliberately being disingenuous 

[Rk_Kerk 9]

If they want to be transgender they have that right, if they want to continue to play sports, continue to allow them to compete against males. 
 

I fail to see how that should matter to transgender people. You are allowed to identify as you wish, allowed to play sports you love. All while not stepping on the toes of biological women. 
 

If they have beef, and insist they need to play sports against women, then you have to wonder what their motive is.

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

2 hours ago, jp157 said:

I think a good way to look at this is from a science view danced around so far. Since they don’t have to do any transition beyond identifying and taking hormones.

Biologically.. they are basically the equivalent males suffering from the effects of severe overtraining and Low T.. competing against biological females.

 

And Average male athletes regularly do extremely well against elite females..

 

Also, anyone who know jack squat about powerlifting and the physical realities of female athletics… understands perfectly how much of an advantage having stronger joints and a denser frame would provide…

 

This is why I’m getting irritated … any actual understanding of high level athletics and training. Basic biology . has actually coached both men and women. On top the actual concrete examples we have… makes very clear a male body with low T clearly still retains advantages…

 

People arguing otherwise.. either are ignorant or deliberately being disingenuous 

 

31 minutes ago, Rk_Kerk said:

If they want to be transgender they have that right, if they want to continue to play sports, continue to allow them to compete against males. 
 

I fail to see how that should matter to transgender people. You are allowed to identify as you wish, allowed to play sports you love. All while not stepping on the toes of biological women. 
 

If they have beef, and insist they need to play sports against women, then you have to wonder what their motive is.

But why is this even an issue? If it’s suddenly decided that women’s athletics will now become inclusive of trans athletes who meet certain criteria, and now some trans athletes become the best powerlifters, who does that really negatively impact? The answer is the women who would have otherwise won……It’s a zero sum game.

But I don’t see them outraged over the decision. The people generally outraged aren’t fans of these sports. If the same people who fought relentlessly for the enforcement of title IX through quotas now want to include trans athletes within those allowed to compete as women, why stop them? It’s simply an expansion of eligibility. 
 

Caster Semenya is a counterexample. She is biologically female, but has a Y chromosome and produces elevated testosterone. So if we go by biological sex she should be able to compete. But by current standards that allow trans athletes she is not. What is the correct and consistent ruling? Honestly, I don’t know, and don’t have a problem with whichever criteria are decided.

[Rk_Kerk 9]

23 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

But why is this even an issue? If it’s suddenly decided that women’s athletics will now become inclusive of trans athletes who meet certain criteria, and now some trans athletes become the best powerlifters, who does that really negatively impact? The answer is the women who would have otherwise won……It’s a zero sum game.

But I don’t see them outraged over the decision. The people generally outraged aren’t fans of these sports. If the same people who fought relentlessly for the enforcement of title IX through quotas now want to include trans athletes within those allowed to compete as women, why stop them? It’s simply an expansion of eligibility. 
 

Caster Semenya is a counterexample. She is biologically female, but has a Y chromosome and produces elevated testosterone. So if we go by biological sex she should be able to compete. But by current standards that allow trans athletes she is not. What is the correct and consistent ruling? Honestly, I don’t know, and don’t have a problem with whichever criteria are decided.

If Semenya has all her female parts, then I 100% disagree with their ruling. She’s a female, she has no control that her body produces extra testosterone. There is a difference in that, and choosing to be male/female. 
 

But she can be an example of how the extra testosterone supremely helps her. Now Imagine a biological male, deciding to be female and instantly have 15+ year advantage of testosterone.

Ive seen it first hand, my sister has played against and along side major D1 players. Among and against players drafted into the WNBA, some of who still play in the WNBA. I know how she stacked up against supreme competition, and I know how I stack up against her. Me being a very average high school male athlete. Knows it’s ludicrous to allow trans men to compete against biological females.

[TripNSweep 735]

33 minutes ago, Rk_Kerk said:

If Semenya has all her female parts, then I 100% disagree with their ruling. She’s a female, she has no control that her body produces extra testosterone. There is a difference in that, and choosing to be male/female. 
 

But she can be an example of how the extra testosterone supremely helps her. Now Imagine a biological male, deciding to be female and instantly have 15+ year advantage of testosterone.

Ive seen it first hand, my sister has played against and along side major D1 players. Among and against players drafted into the WNBA, some of who still play in the WNBA. I know how she stacked up against supreme competition, and I know how I stack up against her. Me being a very average high school male athlete. Knows it’s ludicrous to allow trans men to compete against biological females.

I don't have to imagine it. There have been a few transgender athletes who have competed with elite women and they usually lose. We had a transgender person compete at the US open and finish 6th or something. Why didn't they win due to their supposed advantage? 

[jp157 479]

52 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

But why is this even an issue? If it’s suddenly decided that women’s athletics will now become inclusive of trans athletes who meet certain criteria, and now some trans athletes become the best powerlifters, who does that really negatively impact? The answer is the women who would have otherwise won……It’s a zero sum game.

But I don’t see them outraged over the decision. The people generally outraged aren’t fans of these sports. If the same people who fought relentlessly for the enforcement of title IX through quotas now want to include trans athletes within those allowed to compete as women, why stop them? It’s simply an expansion of eligibility. 
 

Caster Semenya is a counterexample. She is biologically female, but has a Y chromosome and produces elevated testosterone. So if we go by biological sex she should be able to compete. But by current standards that allow trans athletes she is not. What is the correct and consistent ruling? Honestly, I don’t know, and don’t have a problem with whichever criteria are decided.

I’m irritated by the denying of reality. I’m okay with people saying “tough ****” to the women because they fanatically believe in their inclusivity. I actually can understand and tolerate that. I grew up around psycho Christian zionists. I treat people with inclusivity fanaticism with the same attitude I do the Zionist’s.

 

What I’m not okay with is the people dancing around the idea or denying the fact that these “women” have an advantage. 

Either go all in on your belief system. Or just admit you’re okay with the natural women getting screwed. 

[jp157 479]

2 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

I don't have to imagine it. There have been a few transgender athletes who have competed with elite women and they usually lose. We had a transgender person compete at the US open and finish 6th or something. Why didn't they win due to their supposed advantage? 

You’ve moved the goalposts. You’re making it just about if you were the 1st place.   The weightlifter and the person you mentioned are ranked places in the top 8.. that’s a big deal.. that’s in the top echelon.. 

 

Also. Is there any reasonable chance the transgender athlete who got 6th at the US open in the women’s division.. would’ve gotten 6th as a male in the US open before transitioning..

 

Jesus.. you’re trying to say “only” being top 6 and not winning it is proof it doesn’t provide an advantage.. eye roll 

[1032004 1,406]

54 minutes ago, jp157 said:

You’ve moved the goalposts. You’re making it just about if you were the 1st place.   The weightlifter and the person you mentioned are ranked places in the top 8.. that’s a big deal.. that’s in the top echelon.. 

 

Also. Is there any reasonable chance the transgender athlete who got 6th at the US open in the women’s division.. would’ve gotten 6th as a male in the US open before transitioning..

 

Jesus.. you’re trying to say “only” being top 6 and not winning it is proof it doesn’t provide an advantage.. eye roll 

TripNSweep, who was the transgendered athlete that got 6th in the US Open?   That’s probably different than Hubbard “only” being ranked 8th in the world.   Is the US Open what they call “Senior Nationals” now?  Didn’t many of those women’s brackets only have 4-6 people?

However the woman who lost her Olympic team spot and national records to Hubbard doesn’t seem to happy for her - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9718233/Ex-New-Zealand-Olympic-weightlifter-weighs-transgender-athletes-Laurel-Hubbard.html

Edited July 4, 2021 by 1032004

[jp157 479]

7 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

TripNSweep, who was the transgendered athlete that got 6th in the US Open?   That’s probably different than Hubbard “only” being ranked 8th in the world.   Is the US Open what they call “Senior Nationals” now?  Didn’t many of those women’s brackets only have 4-6 people?

However the woman who lost her Olympic team spot and national records to Hubbard doesn’t seem to happy for her - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9718233/Ex-New-Zealand-Olympic-weightlifter-weighs-transgender-athletes-Laurel-Hubbard.html

So wait. Not only is Hubbard a medal contender.. she’s just broke every national record… as a 43 year old. 

[jp157 479]

Oh and lol. At the trying to say since there’s weight classes it “mitigates” the advantage. And since a Chinese athlete is better, that makes it matter less. 

[Sheerstress 168]

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/not-fair-world-cycling-bronze-medalist-cries-foul-after-transgender-woman-wins-gold

[Billyhoyle 2,469]

2 hours ago, Rk_Kerk said:

If Semenya has all her female parts, then I 100% disagree with their ruling. She’s a female, she has no control that her body produces extra testosterone. There is a difference in that, and choosing to be male/female. 
 

But she can be an example of how the extra testosterone supremely helps her. Now Imagine a biological male, deciding to be female and instantly have 15+ year advantage of testosterone.

Ive seen it first hand, my sister has played against and along side major D1 players. Among and against players drafted into the WNBA, some of who still play in the WNBA. I know how she stacked up against supreme competition, and I know how I stack up against her. Me being a very average high school male athlete. Knows it’s ludicrous to allow trans men to compete against biological females.

Why is it ludicrous to allow them to compete? So what if they are at an advantage.. why does that bother you? It’s simply expanding what is an exclusive sub division in athletics. Maybe some trans athletes will win NCAA titles or Olympic medals because of that advantage…is that really a problem though? 

2 hours ago, jp157 said:

I’m irritated by the denying of reality. I’m okay with people saying “tough ****” to the women because they fanatically believe in their inclusivity. I actually can understand and tolerate that. I grew up around psycho Christian zionists. I treat people with inclusivity fanaticism with the same attitude I do the Zionist’s.

 

What I’m not okay with is the people dancing around the idea or denying the fact that these “women” have an advantage. 

Either go all in on your belief system. Or just admit you’re okay with the natural women getting screwed. 

Allowing trans women to compete against other women is simply a change in who is included in an already exclusive competition class. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, and I understand why those who benefited from the previous criteria may not like the new one, but I don’t understand why so many people who otherwise don’t care about women’s weightlifting now care about this athlete. 

[Rk_Kerk 9]

18 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Why is it ludicrous to allow them to compete? So what if they are at an advantage.. why does that bother you? It’s simply expanding what is an exclusive sub division in athletics. Maybe some trans athletes will win NCAA titles or Olympic medals because of that advantage…is that really a problem though? 

Allowing trans women to compete against other women is simply a change in who is included in an already exclusive competition class. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, and I understand why those who benefited from the previous criteria may not like the new one, but I don’t understand why so many people who otherwise don’t care about women’s weightlifting now care about this athlete. 

Well why we are at it, why don’t we allow regular people compete in the paralympics. So what if they are at an advantage it shouldn’t bother anyone. It’s inclusive, and maybe some perfectly healthy people will win gold at the paralympics. But who cares is it really that big of a deal?

[jp157 479]

27 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Why is it ludicrous to allow them to compete? So what if they are at an advantage.. why does that bother you? It’s simply expanding what is an exclusive sub division in athletics. Maybe some trans athletes will win NCAA titles or Olympic medals because of that advantage…is that really a problem though? 

Allowing trans women to compete against other women is simply a change in who is included in an already exclusive competition class. I don’t have a strong opinion either way, and I understand why those who benefited from the previous criteria may not like the new one, but I don’t understand why so many people who otherwise don’t care about women’s weightlifting now care about this athlete. 

At least that’s honest. I’ll respect the honesty not the opinion 

[TripNSweep 735]

8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

TripNSweep, who was the transgendered athlete that got 6th in the US Open?   That’s probably different than Hubbard “only” being ranked 8th in the world.   Is the US Open what they call “Senior Nationals” now?  Didn’t many of those women’s brackets only have 4-6 people?

However the woman who lost her Olympic team spot and national records to Hubbard doesn’t seem to happy for her - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9718233/Ex-New-Zealand-Olympic-weightlifter-weighs-transgender-athletes-Laurel-Hubbard.html

Donna Rosen. Who before transitioning had been a D3 conference champion or something. She wrestled at 72 or 75kg and barely qualified for the trials. I think this was 2011. Nobody really paid much attention to her. I watched a few of her matches and she got pinned, lost by decision in 2 periods, and lost by tech fall. So where is her advantage? 

[gimpeltf 2,040]

So far, the three mentioned were all over 30- Rosen (51 at the time), the cyclist (30+ and the noted competition was a Masters level) and the weightlifter (40+). Actual transitioning  takes time.
To my knowledge, Semenya isn't a case of transitioning.

I suppose the rules and classifications need to be considered but how many HS/College kids transitioning would this impact?

I'm not talking about someone claiming to be female.

[lu1979 558]

14 hours ago, Rk_Kerk said:

Well why we are at it, why don’t we allow regular people compete in the paralympics. So what if they are at an advantage it shouldn’t bother anyone. It’s inclusive, and maybe some perfectly healthy people will win gold at the paralympics. But who cares is it really that big of a deal?

How about some 30 year old who "identifies as a teenager?  Should they be able to compete in the cadet age groups?  What if they "identify" as a child?  Can they compete in the 12 and Under age groups?  Just because someone feels something does not change REALITY and we as a society have to stop pretending it does.

[BuckyBadger 69]

What about weight classes? I identify as a lightweight even after eating a Tomahawk steak last night.

[Plasmodium 2,214]

31 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

How about some 30 year old who "identifies as a teenager?  Should they be able to compete in the cadet age groups?  What if they "identify" as a child?  Can they compete in the 12 and Under age groups?  Just because someone feels something does not change REALITY and we as a society have to stop pretending it does.

If they declare 5 years before competition and attend at least one of Dake's Benjamin Button camps per year,  absolutely.

[lu1979 558]

53 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

What about weight classes? I identify as a lightweight even after eating a Tomahawk steak last night.

That's a great point BB - why should a 100kg athlete who identifies as a 57 kg guy have to step on a scale and empirically prove he is 57 kg?  That would just be bigotry by those 57 kg guys who can actually make the weight.  Shame on them for denying someone's feelings and self professed identity.

[dman115 511]

And why does it bother someone that it bothers someone?? 

[Rk_Kerk 9]

11 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Donna Rosen. Who before transitioning had been a D3 conference champion or something. She wrestled at 72 or 75kg and barely qualified for the trials. I think this was 2011. Nobody really paid much attention to her. I watched a few of her matches and she got pinned, lost by decision in 2 periods, and lost by tech fall. So where is her advantage? 

So He went from a D3 conference champ to 6th place in the US Olympic trials. Sure she didn’t win, but that’s a pretty significant jump. It doesn’t take much of anything to be a D3 athlete in college either.

[BuckyBadger 69]

Let’s try a different but more serious example which I think illustrates how inconsistent and politically motivated the treatment of trans gender athletes are.

Anyone remember the name Rachel Dolezal? 

She was a woman who identified and passed herself off as black even though she was born to white parents. She was even the head of a local NAACP chapter in Washington state and a lecturer in Africana studies at Eastern Washington University.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

When it came out that she was not born  black she was raked through the coals and accused of cultural appropriation by the same crowd which is today very outspoken in their support of trans athletes participating in women’s athletics.

”In 2015, Dolezal acknowledged that she was "born white to white parents," but maintained that she self-identified as black.”

Did it matter that she identified as black? Of course not.

You’d think if this issue was simply about accepting how someone self identifies we would see some consistency in the treatment of various forms of how people identify.

But it’s never been about that. It’s about if you are perceived as fighting the right battle.

Anyone who identifies as a woman and is criticized for wanting to compete against women in sports is fighting the good fight and making society more “accepting”.
But someone who is born white and identifies as a historically mistreated minority is committing cultural appropriation. The hypocrisy of these positions is very revealing and should make it obvious to all the clear political motivations behind the trans athlete movement.

Edited July 5, 2021 by BuckyBadger

[JasonBryant 2,054]

[AHamilton 1,026]

23 hours ago, Rk_Kerk said:

If Semenya has all her female parts, then I 100% disagree with their ruling. She’s a female, she has no control that her body produces extra testosterone. There is a difference in that, and choosing to be male/female. 
 

But she can be an example of how the extra testosterone supremely helps her. Now Imagine a biological male, deciding to be female and instantly have 15+ year advantage of testosterone.

Ive seen it first hand, my sister has played against and along side major D1 players. Among and against players drafted into the WNBA, some of who still play in the WNBA. I know how she stacked up against supreme competition, and I know how I stack up against her. Me being a very average high school male athlete. Knows it’s ludicrous to allow trans men to compete against biological females.

My understanding, ( from earlier in the thread is that Semenya) while being intergender, has functioning but undescended testes.