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VakAttack

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About Max Dean, understand why there is skepticism of him succeeding at 197. That being said, if he DOES end up placing high, keep that same energy, don't switch it to "Of course he did well, he was a former finalist! Cael didn't develop him, he just rented him!" 

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1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

The man is an ncaa finalist and has wins over 2 different ncaa champs and now he’s at penn state with the best big man coaches and practice partners in the country but cam Caffey and tanner Sloan are going to pass him up? Jake Woodley ? Warner the guy who only AAed because a  ncaa ref turned into Stevie wonder for the entire minute Warner was stuck ? Dean would be favored against anyone on this list except Ferrari, beard would be favored against maybe 4 of these guys 

The point is that the field is definitely deep enough that placing higher than 7th is not even remotely a foregone conclusion.  And I say that actually knowing Dave and having watched the boys wrestle since they were little.  I will be cheering for him to take 1st(against anyone but Caffey), but that doesn't mean I am not a realist.  Take off the colored glasses and you may be able to understand some points that don't AUTOMATICALLY put every PSU wrestler into the Finals......

Oh, and Warner wrestled pretty damn well in every other match he wrestled in that tournament, so I would say he MOST LIKELY still AA's if a pin was called(that excuse gets old after a while).  It's not like his road was going to be that hard after losing to Reenan.  He would have had to beat Coleman, Aiello(looked terrible his last 2 matches at NCAA's), Penola(he beat him 9-4 and 4-0 during the season) and Buchanan(he actually beat him a round later at that NCAA) to AA.  He would likely have had Caffey the next round(he beat him the round before at that NCAA) and then finally Woodley falls into the same spot.  So, the odds were VERY GOOD Warner wrestles back to the EXACT SAME spot he made it to!

Edited by MSU158

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2 hours ago, IGotAPlan said:

About Max Dean, understand why there is skepticism of him succeeding at 197. That being said, if he DOES end up placing high, keep that same energy, don't switch it to "Of course he did well, he was a former finalist! Cael didn't develop him, he just rented him!" 

No.  I will be rooting for him to win it all, regardless.

I am allowed to temper my expectations because he had one amazing tournament.

2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

My hot take is that Beard beats Dean out for the spot and this debate won't even matter.

I bet they find a way to keep a year of Beard and Dean starts.

Honestly think Brooks at 197 and Dean at 184 us the best option for them.

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Max Dean is more likely to be Kyle Conel than Andrew Long in terms of NCAA impact just due to the construction of the weight.  That's not a slight on him, but he doesn't have the preternatural physical gifts that I think lend to him being a surefire high AA.  And Beard got EXTREMELY lucky to make 7th based on how the bracket played out.  I think Dean is significantly better than him, but is unlikely to outplace him by much, if at all.  As long as Amos can make the cut, I don't think Dean (or anybody) is beating Amos or Ferrari.  After that, everybody has already listed the guys that are going to be there...we'll see.  I actually think it's not a bad head to head match up for PSU vs. Iowa, though, given Dean's style and Warner's occasionally suspect tank.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Max Dean is more likely to be Kyle Conel than Andrew Long in terms of NCAA impact just due to the construction of the weight.  That's not a slight on him, but he doesn't have the preternatural physical gifts that I think lend to him being a surefire high AA.  And Beard got EXTREMELY lucky to make 7th based on how the bracket played out.  I think Dean is significantly better than him, but is unlikely to outplace him by much, if at all.  As long as Amos can make the cut, I don't think Dean (or anybody) is beating Amos or Ferrari.  After that, everybody has already listed the guys that are going to be there...we'll see.  I actually think it's not a bad head to head match up for PSU vs. Iowa, though, given Dean's style and Warner's occasionally suspect tank.

FRL today Amos said he doesn't cut to make 97 and that the only reason he goes 97 is so he can go both styles.  His plan is 197 for the next 5 years, with the current plan to be ORS.  May not use it, though.

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19 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Max Dean is more likely to be Kyle Conel than Andrew Long in terms of NCAA impact just due to the construction of the weight.  That's not a slight on him, but he doesn't have the preternatural physical gifts that I think lend to him being a surefire high AA.  And Beard got EXTREMELY lucky to make 7th based on how the bracket played out.  I think Dean is significantly better than him, but is unlikely to outplace him by much, if at all.  As long as Amos can make the cut, I don't think Dean (or anybody) is beating Amos or Ferrari.  After that, everybody has already listed the guys that are going to be there...we'll see.  I actually think it's not a bad head to head match up for PSU vs. Iowa, though, given Dean's style and Warner's occasionally suspect tank.

Okay - I'm all for saying maybe we should temper expectations on Max at 197 but comparing him to Kyle Conel (who literally was one magical weekend and then got career altering shoulder surgery) ..... a bit of a stretch, Conel might not have qualified that year the way his year was playing out. Max has 2 years of results (albeit at 184) to show he's consistently a superb folk wrestler. 

Rob Koll was very candid on Baschamania about Max's freestyle abilities, said he's just not good at it (or inconsistent depending on what you want to call it) because he just doesn't have instincts to score "free" points in certain positions but his gas tank allows him to really be good at folk. 

Like I said, this is all just fun discussion right now and we'll know soon enough how this all plays out. All I ask like I said is don't go with the of course he did well, he was a finalist before narrative later if Max does end up making a big difference next year. 

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1 minute ago, IGotAPlan said:

Okay - I'm all for saying maybe we should temper expectations on Max at 197 but comparing him to Kyle Conel (who literally was one magical weekend and then got career altering shoulder surgery) ..... a bit of a stretch, Conel might not have qualified that year the way his year was playing out. Max has 2 years of results (albeit at 184) to show he's consistently a superb folk wrestler. 

Rob Koll was very candid on Baschamania about Max's freestyle abilities, said he's just not good at it (or inconsistent depending on what you want to call it) because he just doesn't have instincts to score "free" points in certain positions but his gas tank allows him to really be good at folk. 

Like I said, this is all just fun discussion right now and we'll know soon enough how this all plays out. All I ask like I said is don't go with the of course he did well, he was a finalist before narrative later if Max does end up making a big difference next year. 

There was an end to that sentence about Kyle Conel....

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4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

There was an end to that sentence about Kyle Conel....

Fair enough, my bad. I did fixate on the name "Kyle Conel" too much. I get what you're saying since 197 is deep so it's possible a few people can beat Max. But at the same time it's very open. Nino Bonaccorsi technically lost to NC State's true freshman backup this year and then made the finals. You're saying you think Max is more likely to get caught in the parity and miss the podium than take advantage of it and make the finals or place top 3-4 and that's fine, we won't agree there.  

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21 minutes ago, RED said:

I was under the impression Brooks was bumping and Dean would stay at 184?  That was posted a long time ago.

I don't recall ever seeing thar aside for speculation or hopes for folks.  Where did you see it?  I am all for it if so 

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12 minutes ago, IGotAPlan said:

Like I said, this is all just fun discussion right now and we'll know soon enough how this all plays out. All I ask like I said is don't go with the of course he did well, he was a finalist before narrative later if Max does end up making a big difference next year. 

My narrative will be more of the 'He put in the work and earned it.  Good on him.'

I will always root for the Deans, just like I will root for Ian Parker at St. Johns, Hillger at Wisconsin, Whitman at UNC, Trombley at NC State.

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15 minutes ago, IGotAPlan said:

Fair enough, my bad. I did fixate on the name "Kyle Conel" too much. I get what you're saying since 197 is deep so it's possible a few people can beat Max. But at the same time it's very open. Nino Bonaccorsi technically lost to NC State's true freshman backup this year and then made the finals. You're saying you think Max is more likely to get caught in the parity and miss the podium than take advantage of it and make the finals or place top 3-4 and that's fine, we won't agree there.  

That's very true.  Depending on if Amine is there, I wouldn't be shocked to see Dean at 3rd, though I wouldn't predict it.  I think more likely to be 5th to R12.  But as you said, differences of opinion.  Lets find out!

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10 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

That's very true.  Depending on if Amine is there, I wouldn't be shocked to see Dean at 3rd, though I wouldn't predict it.  I think more likely to be 5th to R12.  But as you said, differences of opinion.  Lets find out!

149/197 will be key for Penn State to pull the win off next year. Main reason, they're both open weights where there might be 2 solid favorites (Yianni/Sasso and Ferrari/Amos) to make the finals but 3 to 12 can go in MANY orders. Right now, Iowa is looking better there right now as you guys are proven there. Warner has proven he wins in March (regardless of how boring people say he is) and Murin has been R12 twice now, including once with mono (which I believe was what made Spencer look mortal his sophomore year for a bit) That being said, and you would agree with me, Max is almost certainly a better option than Beard there. Beard DID have a good draw to AA and he has shown when the tank runs empty for him, it is UGLY. 

I think a lot of PSU fans want to see Cael move his hammer up to the heavier weight (N Lee to 149 and Brooks to 197) and let his "weaker" guy (Bartlett/SVN and Max Dean) go the lower weights but his MO has always been to let his hammers go wherever they want and it's worked pretty well up until now. 

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3 minutes ago, IGotAPlan said:

149/197 will be key for Penn State to pull the win off next year. Main reason, they're both open weights where there might be 2 solid favorites (Yianni/Sasso and Ferrari/Amos) to make the finals but 3 to 12 can go in MANY orders. Right now, Iowa is looking better there right now as you guys are proven there. Warner has proven he wins in March (regardless of how boring people say he is) and Murin has been R12 twice now, including once with mono (which I believe was what made Spencer look mortal his sophomore year for a bit) That being said, and you would agree with me, Max is almost certainly a better option than Beard there. Beard DID have a good draw to AA and he has shown when the tank runs empty for him, it is UGLY. 

I think a lot of PSU fans want to see Cael move his hammer up to the heavier weight (N Lee to 149 and Brooks to 197) and let his "weaker" guy (Bartlett/SVN and Max Dean) go the lower weights but his MO has always been to let his hammers go wherever they want and it's worked pretty well up until now. 

Would Brooks not be very undersized at 197? I never got the impression that he was a particularly large 184lber 

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2 hours ago, Chucktown_Luke said:

Would Brooks not be very undersized at 197? I never got the impression that he was a particularly large 184lber 

He looked THICC this last year.  He did tech Dean as well.  I need to rewatch the match to compare size though.

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15 hours ago, Chucktown_Luke said:

Would Brooks not be very undersized at 197? I never got the impression that he was a particularly large 184lber 

Carl has embraced the "be comfortable instead of cutting weight" approach, especially at the upper weights. He did it himself, Quentin Wright, Nickal, Taylor (post grad), etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is the plan for Brooks.

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