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Olympic Sports vs Olympic “Sports”

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

So does wrestling basically as the ref judges who scored.

That would be true of every sport. Imagine how it would work if the points scored were based on the difficulty of the move and the execution. Hardly the same thing that we have in wrestling.

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I dare you to say that archery is not a sport to the faces of Robin Hood or Legolas.  There is obvious athleticism involved and it requires significant skill.  Have you ever tried archery?  I think the air rifle is dumb, but riflery itself does belong in the olympics and is also a sport. 

 

I also don't like this whole calling sailing into question.  See the following scene as a counterpoint. 

 

 

And we aren't socialists.  Who cares if a sport isn't affordable to the average poor person?  The rich deserve to be able to compete in boat races at the highest level.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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53 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Nope. A thousand times nope. Judges give scores. Refs and umpires make decisions and enforce the rules.

Fair enough, but decisions, especially in freestyle, can be pretty subjective.

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My personal definition of a sport is a kinetic athletic activity in which your opponent can directly prevent you from scoring. Other things are competitions or races, which isn't a value judgement since I think gymnastics is the most athletic, but it helps me think about things.

I'm all for more Olympic "activities" or whathaveyou, I just obviously wish they didn't come at the expense of wrestling. The Olympics does seem to be in a weird space right now with the increasingly irrelevant peacetime military competition aspects like archery and shooting which are just tech shows now, and more fringe and niche sports competing for space. 

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My sport criteria....

1.  If you can be the best in the world at it and, at the same time, be a fata$$, smoke cigartettes, and brink beer while literally doing, it is not a sport.  Examples:  fishing, darts, bowling, golf...

2.  If to do well one has to wear meakeup, sparkles, and smile, it is not a sport.  (Figure skating, ballroom dancing...)

3.  If there is not clear criteria where everyone comes a 99% conclsion of who wins, it is not a sport.  This means first across the finish line, object thrown the farthest, ball through the hoop, ball in a goal, number of hits, number of takedowns, lift the most weight... that sort of thing.  OF COURSE THERE IS SOME SUBJECTIVITY AND HUMAN JUDGEMENT:  Did he travel?  False start?  Illeagle slam? Charging or blocking?  This is different than judging where the USA judge gives an athlete  a 9/10 and the Russian judge scores the same thing 4/10.  Note: Some olympic events like gymnastics and diving have truly tried to end this sort of subjectivity.  Kudos to them.

4. If it involves a motor, it ain't a sport.  I know motorcross take incredible endurance.  Incredible endurance does not equate to sport.

So...  Figure skating is not a sport - Speed skaing is.  Airal Ski jumping is not a sport - Downhill skiiing is.  Downhill skateboarding is a sport - half pipe is not.  Swimming is sport - diving is not.  You get the idea.

Note 1:  Becuase an activity is not a sport, does not mean it isnt incredble , fun to watch, and its participants are not badass.  I love watching skateboarding, gymnastics, diving, etc...  Competitive cheerleaders are as tough as can be.  

Note 2: Becuase something takes incredible athletic ability, strength, hard work, conditioning, and dedication, that does not qualify it as a sport.  Ballet, break dancng, and tap dancing are great examples of such.  Ever watch a speed metal drummer?  Super athletic, but not a sport.   

Note 3:  Becasue it is not a sport, that does not make it less awesome.  I love fishing so much that...  lets just say I love fishing.  I work very hard at it and there are skills I need to practice all the time to catch more fish than other people.  That, of course, does not make me an athlete.  If my daughther wants to go into cheerleading and tumbling when she is older, I would love that for her.  Not being a sport is not an insult.  Some need to quit acting like it is.   

Note 4:  Everyone always says, "What about baseball?"  That is a great question.  To me baseball really straddles the line.  It is more sport than golf for sure...  and the one outlier that challeneges my criteria.  To me I say sport...but I could see it like golf too. 

Hmmmm...  I think that is it... 

Edited by matts1w

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38 minutes ago, matts1w said:

My sport criteria....

1.  If you can be the best in the world at it and, at the same time, be a fata$$, smoke cigartettes, and brink beer while literally doing, it is not a sport.  Examples:  fishing, darts, bowling, golf...

2.  If to do well one has to wear meakeup, sparkles, and smile, it is not a sport.  (Figure skating, ballroom dancing...)

3.  If there is not clear criteria where everyone comes a 99% conclsion of who wins, it is not a sport.  This means first across the finish line, object thrown the farthest, ball through the hoop, ball in a goal, number of hits, number of takedowns, lift the most weight... that sort of thing.  OF COURSE THERE IS SOME SUBJECTIVITY AND HUMAN JUDGEMENT:  Did he travel?  False start?  Illeagle slam? Charging or blocking?  This is different than judging where the USA judge gives an athlete  a 9/10 and the Russian judge scores the same thing 4/10.  Note: Some olympic events like gymnastics and diving have truly tried to end this sort of subjectivity.  Kudos to them.

4. If it involves a motor, it ain't a sport.  I know motorcross take incredible endurance.  Incredible endurance does not equate to sport.

So...  Figure skating is not a sport - Speed skaing is.  Airal Ski jumping is not a sport - Downhill skiiing is.  Downhill skateboarding is a sport - half pipe is not.  Swimming is sport - diving is not.  You get the idea.

Note 1:  Becuase an activity is not a sport, does not mean it isnt incredble , fun to watch, and its participants are not badass.  I love watching skateboarding, gymnastics, diving, etc...  Competitive cheerleaders are as tough as can be.  

Note 2: Becuase something takes incredible athletic ability, strength, hard work, conditioning, and dedication, that does not qualify it as a sport.  Ballet, break dancng, and tap dancing are great examples of such.  Ever watch a speed metal drummer?  Super athletic, but not a sport.   

Note 3:  Becasue it is not a sport, that does not make it less awesome.  I love fishing so much that...  lets just say I love fishing.  I work very hard at it and there are skills I need to practice all the time to catch more fish than other people.  That, of course, does not make me an athlete.  If my daughther wants to go into cheerleading and tumbling when she is older, I would love that for her.  Not being a sport is not an insult.  Some need to quit acting like it is.   

Note 4:  Everyone always says, "What about baseball?"  That is a great question.  To me baseball really straddles the line.  It is more sport than golf for sure...  and the one outlier that challeneges my criteria.  To me I say sport...but I could see it like golf too. 

Hmmmm...  I think that is it... 

Can you explain again why you are unsure about baseball?

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36 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Can you explain again why you are unsure about baseball?

The whole smoking, out of shape aspect.  I know that is not really the case anymore, but histroically it was.    It absolutley shares characteristics with sport, and there are some aspects that share aspects with golf and bowling.  Is being a DH more a skill than an athlete?  Don't say, "You try to hit a fast ball!"  I get it.  

Edited by matts1w

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2 hours ago, matts1w said:

My sport criteria....

1.  If you can be the best in the world at it and, at the same time, be a fata$$, smoke cigartettes, and brink beer while literally doing, it is not a sport.  Examples:  fishing, darts, bowling, golf...

2.  If to do well one has to wear meakeup, sparkles, and smile, it is not a sport.  (Figure skating, ballroom dancing...)

3.  If there is not clear criteria where everyone comes a 99% conclsion of who wins, it is not a sport.  This means first across the finish line, object thrown the farthest, ball through the hoop, ball in a goal, number of hits, number of takedowns, lift the most weight... that sort of thing.  OF COURSE THERE IS SOME SUBJECTIVITY AND HUMAN JUDGEMENT:  Did he travel?  False start?  Illeagle slam? Charging or blocking?  This is different than judging where the USA judge gives an athlete  a 9/10 and the Russian judge scores the same thing 4/10.  Note: Some olympic events like gymnastics and diving have truly tried to end this sort of subjectivity.  Kudos to them.

4. If it involves a motor, it ain't a sport.  I know motorcross take incredible endurance.  Incredible endurance does not equate to sport.

So...  Figure skating is not a sport - Speed skaing is.  Airal Ski jumping is not a sport - Downhill skiiing is.  Downhill skateboarding is a sport - half pipe is not.  Swimming is sport - diving is not.  You get the idea.

Note 1:  Becuase an activity is not a sport, does not mean it isnt incredble , fun to watch, and its participants are not badass.  I love watching skateboarding, gymnastics, diving, etc...  Competitive cheerleaders are as tough as can be.  

Note 2: Becuase something takes incredible athletic ability, strength, hard work, conditioning, and dedication, that does not qualify it as a sport.  Ballet, break dancng, and tap dancing are great examples of such.  Ever watch a speed metal drummer?  Super athletic, but not a sport.   

Note 3:  Becasue it is not a sport, that does not make it less awesome.  I love fishing so much that...  lets just say I love fishing.  I work very hard at it and there are skills I need to practice all the time to catch more fish than other people.  That, of course, does not make me an athlete.  If my daughther wants to go into cheerleading and tumbling when she is older, I would love that for her.  Not being a sport is not an insult.  Some need to quit acting like it is.   

Note 4:  Everyone always says, "What about baseball?"  That is a great question.  To me baseball really straddles the line.  It is more sport than golf for sure...  and the one outlier that challeneges my criteria.  To me I say sport...but I could see it like golf too. 

Hmmmm...  I think that is it... 

1. Pretty much agree. At a certain threshold of being overly skill based, goes from being a sport to an activity. Good rule of thumb beer rule.

2. So you think rituals and aesthetics are a deal breaker?  A lot of very old sports with the passage of time pick up various rituals, religious aesthetics, and pomp. Its somehting that happens with the passage of time, traditions get formalized. Do you not consider sumo a sport?  They have to bow and stomp and scowl because its so ancient and practice continuously , but at the basic level its rules are very sport like,  push out or trip your opponent to win. 

3. I actually do agree with this, but Boxing and MMA don't pass this litmus test and people don't want to admit it. Yes you can KO  or submit someone and that is objective but when decisions are on scorecards (and that is a regular occurence)  its really not that different from the oscars selecting best picture. Its subjective to a non sporting degree. And the ancients agreed they had MMA and Boxing, but they had sport versions of them.   Modern day MMA/boxing are  prize fighting showmanship which I'd argue is a hybrid of a sport,  a circus,  and a talent show (besides also being martial arts). In the ancient olympic games to win in boxing you knocked the other guy out and to win pankration you submitted or KO'd the other guy, 

4. Yep. Skill vs athletic. Driving is a skill. 

 

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1 hour ago, matts1w said:

The whole smoking, out of shape aspect.  I know that is not really the case anymore, but histroically it was.    It absolutley shares characteristics with sport, and there are some aspects that share aspects with golf and bowling.  Is being a DH more a skill than an athlete?  Don't say, "You try to hit a fast ball!"  I get it.  

Baseball and golf are without question sports. There are football players who are fat/out of shape.  Football is definitely also a sport.  Your criteria just are not very good.  

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7 minutes ago, HawkY said:

2. So you think rituals and aesthetics are a deal breaker?  A lot of very old sports with the passage of time pick up various rituals, religious aesthetics, and pomp. Its somehting that happens with the passage of time, traditions get formalized. Do you not consider sumo a sport?  They have to bow and stomp and scowl because its so ancient and practice continuously , but at the basic level its rules are very sport like,  push out or trip your opponent to win. 

 

I said nothing about rituals and aesthetics.  I was literally talking about glitter, makeup, and smiling to score points and win.    

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Any examples of someone being the best in the world at one of these events while smoking and drinking during it? 

Darts.  Fishing.  Bowling.  Skeet shooting.  Horseshoes.  Golf.  (I siad it.  Golf!).   esports.

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50 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Baseball and golf are without question sports. There are football players who are fat/out of shape.  Football is definitely also a sport.  Your criteria just are not very good.  

Meh- I totally question golf as a sport.  

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1 hour ago, wrestlingphish said:

Any examples of someone being the best in the world at one of these events while smoking and drinking during it? 

Ever meet John Daly?John Daly returning to St. Jude Classic golf tournament in Memphis

 

Edited by DanGerMan

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

... golf are without question sports. There are football players who are fat/out of shape.  Football is definitely also a sport.  Your criteria just are not very good.  

Seems many are questioning your "without question" sport of golf.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2002-04-19-0204190149-story.html

https://www.thesportster.com/entertainment/top-10-reasons-golf-is-not-a-sport/

There are endless more... 

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1 minute ago, matts1w said:

If it's on the internet, it must be true.  How about this:  wrestling isn't a sport.  It's just two people rolling around on a mat getting points for arbitrary reasons.  That opinion is about as equally valid as saying golf/baseball/basketball/football aren't sports. Ask any random person which is a "real" sport, golf or wrestling, and the odds are most people will say golf because they will assume you are talking about WWE.  Sorry to break it to you, but you aren't the decider of what is and isn't a sport and neither is a random click bait blog you found on the internet by googling to support your opinion.  Wikipedia is the decider, so please see the first sentence of the following:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf

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6 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I'm not sure what your definition of full commercialization is, but I remember McDonald's being a big sponsor of the 76 games. They ran meal promotions around it too. You got a game piece with an event. If the US won gold you got a burger, silver was a drink and brinze was fries. A sweep meant a whole meal. I am pretty sure the Olympics have been commercialized well before 84.

As for professional athletes, that was a direct response to Russian hkckey and basketball teams manned by soldiers in name, but athletes by profession. And the US didn't just start sending professionals. The IOC changed their rules to permit it. Yes, due to US lobbying, but an often antagonistic international body had to allow it first. Michael Jordan's availability probably didnt hurt the timing of the decision either.

They hadn't been fully commercialized before 1984 for a number of reasons.

1. The head of the IOC through 1972 (too lazy to look up his name at the time) didn't allow it.

2. The Montreal games were close to the U.S., but did not have that U.S. market the way L.A. did in 1984. You had a lot of investment across industries in the Games beyond the world's largest fast food chain. 

3. 1980 was Moscow. I am too young to remember them, but how much coverage did they get here in the states.

Here is an interesting take on those very games done seven years ago by a writer for the "Wall Street Journal". I didn't know a lot of this until the moment I am replying to this, but it bolsters my previous statements: 

I remember the arguments about professionalizing the Games. Part of it also was the U.S. wanting to lend support to the IOC with keeping the Games loaded with amateurs. The NBA had a world-wide product they could promote, and the IOC took notice of it. Again, the IOC is a business, and they understood the difference in their bottom line between having MJ, Magic, Barkley, Bird, and others out there instead of that year's NCAA all-star team. $$$

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5 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

It can only be a sport if there is defense involved. Otherwise it’s demonstration of athletic skill.  Doesn’t make it any more or less important. 

So track is  not a sport?

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13 hours ago, LJB said:

i don't disagree with any of this, but, we all still need to realize that the olympic dream for athletes still exits and just because a few old guys don't get what skateboarding has to do with sporting prowess means absolutely fuk all...

these athletes devote their lives to the biggest event this planet puts on every 4 years...

it is still a big deal...

I agree that it is indeed a big deal to the athletes - just as the annual world cup events are. But the Olympics are now in the hands of marketing wizards - wizards who can convince a normal typical American housewife (with no specific interest in sports in general) that she cares about how an Algerian man whom she has never met does in skeet shooting. Those marketing guys are the ones USA wrestling should hire to promote our sport.

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5 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If it's on the internet, it must be true.  How about this:  wrestling isn't a sport.  It's just two people rolling around on a mat getting points for arbitrary reasons.  That opinion is about as equally valid as saying golf/baseball/basketball/football aren't sports. Ask any random person which is a "real" sport, golf or wrestling, and the odds are most people will say golf because they will assume you are talking about WWE.  Sorry to break it to you, but you aren't the decider of what is and isn't a sport and neither is a random click bait blog you found on the internet by googling to support your opinion.  Wikipedia is the decider, so please see the first sentence of the following:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf

No problem.  My ideas are far from universal law.  Go ahead and smash your little white  ball in a glorified version of croquet and prance down your manicured lawns and golf cart paths.  Never stop pretending you are indeed an athlete.  As you say, that fact cannot be questioned.  Cheers.

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7 hours ago, matts1w said:

Darts.  Fishing.  Bowling.  Skeet shooting.  Horseshoes.  Golf.  (I siad it.  Golf!).   esports.

None of those are people who were the best at their activity while drinking and smoking during competition. Try again.

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