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NJDan

Any Precedent for Biles

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4 minutes ago, Shahin2000 said:

There's really no comparison to Simone's actions not even Osaka's.  Naomi can still come back in another tournament a year from now and play.  With resect to Olympic athletes and super athletes like Simone with the weight of the country on their shoulders I can totally understand the pressures they face.  But as equally as she is getting praised for withdrawing, there should be no backlash for criticizing her decision.  The person I would like to hear from is Kerry Strug (sp).  I would like to know what she thinks of Simone's decision.

https://www.today.com/news/kerri-strug-shares-her-support-simone-biles-rest-usa-gymnasts-t226636

You're allowed to google it yourself ya know.

 

https://twitter.com/Dmoceanu/status/1420396388614037509?s=20

"The five-time Olympic medalist said as she exited the competitions that she has been struggling with her mental health and “the twisties,” a dangerous circumstance where a gymnast can lose their awareness in the air.  

Moceanu on social media warned that the condition can be “catastrophic” for a gymnast.

“In our sport, we essentially dive into a pool w/ no water. When you lose your ability to find the ground — which appears to be part of @Simone_Biles decision — the consequences can be catastrophic,” Moceanu shared.  

“She made the right decision for the team & herself,” she added."

Edited by uncle bernard

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7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I would like to invite you to fall on your head from 10-15 ft in the air if you feel this way because that's what she's actually dealing with.

You can piss and moan about her "quitting" all you want, but there's a reason that gymnasts and divers all over the world immediately understood the position she was in and old men on computers don't.

Yep that demonstrates the basic point of my post, which was that if anyone tries to have a reasonable conversation about two sides of the story and says it's OK to criticize, they are personally attacked.  Nuance and detail not allowed, you have to fall in line behind her, only opinion allowed is that she was heroic.

Gymnastics and diving and many other sports are dangerous.  Today thousands of rock hard objects will be zoomed within a foot of major league batters at 90-105 mph and fielders running at full speed without padding will collide or almost collide.  Wide receivers risk their careers every time they go over the middle.  Combat sports, etc. 

The fact that it's a potentially dangerous sport which a middle aged office worker isn't able to perform himself is not an all purpose trump card for shouting down a nuanced post which among other things notes that quitting in the middle of a competiton without a serious (or any) injury because it's not fun and because "it hurts my heart" that you're "doing it for other people" when "I wanted it to be for myself" is unprecedented and not unambiguously heroic. (Apologies for quoting her own stated reasons for stopping in the middle of the event.)

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1 hour ago, Drake_Mallard said:

I think Bobby Ross was a big part of the reason if I remember correctly.

He praised Ross as a coach and was irritated by the ownership of the team for not getting any talent around him. He probably would have played a few seasons more had they released him from his contract when he retired but they wouldn't, so he stayed retired. I think Dan Snyder was going to pay him big money had he been allowed out of his Lions contract.

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1 hour ago, Shahin2000 said:

I don't think that was the intention of the OP.  I think the message is simply that if we are going to praise her actions of quitting from the team competition, there should also be enough respect given to voices who are going to criticize her action.

Fair enough...however, after rereading it, I still did not take his piece that way, and if he meant it that way then he should have said that instead of calling her names, like "quitter" and "coward".  And even if he did, what does it say about someone who would be so upset about it that they throw vitriol her way.  That says a lot about that person than it does about SB.  Be upset, disappointed, not like the decision all you want, but maybe try and understand what the person truly is going through, and have freakin empathy for crying out load.  I too am upset that the women team took silver and not gold...it sucks...but I am not going to call SB names and be mad at her for something I could never imagine to have to go through.  She is the absolute GOAT no matter how butt hurt people are about her decision.

And it is absolutely laughable that people are upset because the media only covered one side of it...seriously!!?!?!   That has been their MO for many many years...and it has never been worse than it is now.  Hence...I don't watch local network tv or the news.

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4 minutes ago, dman115 said:

Fair enough...however, after rereading it, I still did not take his piece that way, and if he meant it that way then he should have said that instead of calling her names, like "quitter" and "coward".  And even if he did, what does it say about someone who would be so upset about it that they throw vitriol her way.  That says a lot about that person than it does about SB.  Be upset, disappointed, not like the decision all you want, but maybe try and understand what the person truly is going through, and have freakin empathy for crying out load.  I too am upset that the women team took silver and not gold...it sucks...but I am not going to call SB names and be mad at her for something I could never imagine to have to go through.  She is the absolute GOAT no matter how butt hurt people are about her decision.

And it is absolutely laughable that people are upset because the media only covered one side of it...seriously!!?!?!   That has been their MO for many many years...and it has never been worse than it is now.  Hence...I don't watch local network tv or the news.

The only person to use the word "coward" or "quitter" in this thread is you.  Neither the OP nor me nor anyone else used either word, as should have seen clear as you were "rereading" what I assume was my post(s). 

I, like several others on this thread, used the word "quit," which is the dictionary description ("to cease normal, expected, or necessary action") of what happened (along with "quitting," also a verb) and not a pejorative term like the noun, "quitter." 

Nor do I believe that I threw any "vitriol" her way.  Among other things I elaborated on what I thought were the real mental challenges faced by Simone Biles and other female gymnasts.  Saying that I was troubled by the predictable lauding of her as heroic is not vitriol.  

You described your solution to bad discourse in parts of the public sphere -- you don't listen to any of it.  Not a bad choice.  My hope is to not have to do that, preferably our society will find some ability to celebrate respectful discourse. 

My other hope is that you not directly quote people as using words that they never used. I'd settle for that, although I also wish that you would engage other people's arguments on the merits without assaulting their character.  

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1 hour ago, drag it said:

Yep that demonstrates the basic point of my post, which was that if anyone tries to have a reasonable conversation about two sides of the story and says it's OK to criticize, they are personally attacked.  Nuance and detail not allowed, you have to fall in line behind her, only opinion allowed is that she was heroic.

Gymnastics and diving and many other sports are dangerous.  Today thousands of rock hard objects will be zoomed within a foot of major league batters at 90-105 mph and fielders running at full speed without padding will collide or almost collide.  Wide receivers risk their careers every time they go over the middle.  Combat sports, etc. 

The fact that it's a potentially dangerous sport which a middle aged office worker isn't able to perform himself is not an all purpose trump card for shouting down a nuanced post which among other things notes that quitting in the middle of a competiton without a serious (or any) injury because it's not fun and because "it hurts my heart" that you're "doing it for other people" when "I wanted it to be for myself" is unprecedented and not unambiguously heroic. (Apologies for quoting her own stated reasons for stopping in the middle of the event.)

It wasn't a personal attack. I didn't call you an idiot or a bad person. I was putting in perspective what she was facing, which is quite literally falling on her head from 10-15 feet. Would you do that with the hope that you might miraculously figure it out in the final moment? 

And it's a bad comparison to those other examples because players in those sports don't do those things when they can't protect themselves. Batters don't step in the box when they're having vision problems. Football players are monitored closely and removed at the slightest sign of concussion. Fights are ended when one fighter stops protecting themselves. 

Biles knows she cannot land, so she isn't going to risk her safety. It's the right call. If you want to say it means she failed as an athlete because handling pressure is part of the game, that's correct. But to say she's a quitter isn't right. She didn't quit on her team. She failed to perform, which happens in every sporting event.

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22 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

It wasn't a personal attack. I didn't call you an idiot or a bad person. I was putting in perspective what she was facing, which is quite literally falling on her head from 10-15 feet. Would you do that with the hope that you might miraculously figure it out in the final moment? 

And it's a bad comparison to those other examples because players in those sports don't do those things when they can't protect themselves. Batters don't step in the box when they're having vision problems. Football players are monitored closely and removed at the slightest sign of concussion. Fights are ended when one fighter stops protecting themselves. 

Biles knows she cannot land, so she isn't going to risk her safety. It's the right call. If you want to say it means she failed as an athlete because handling pressure is part of the game, that's correct. But to say she's a quitter isn't right. She didn't quit on her team. She failed to perform, which happens in every sporting event.

Also, based on the eventual results, a subpar Biles might have hurt her team by participating. The ROC was very close go the US team-- it qualified first.  There was no guaranty the US would win with Biles. And with her in a bad state, the US might have done worse.

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

It wasn't a personal attack. I didn't call you an idiot or a bad person. I was putting in perspective what she was facing, which is quite literally falling on her head from 10-15 feet. Would you do that with the hope that you might miraculously figure it out in the final moment? 

And it's a bad comparison to those other examples because players in those sports don't do those things when they can't protect themselves. Batters don't step in the box when they're having vision problems. Football players are monitored closely and removed at the slightest sign of concussion. Fights are ended when one fighter stops protecting themselves. 

Biles knows she cannot land, so she isn't going to risk her safety. It's the right call. If you want to say it means she failed as an athlete because handling pressure is part of the game, that's correct. But to say she's a quitter isn't right. She didn't quit on her team. She failed to perform, which happens in every sporting event.

I couldn't miraculously figure it out in the air, I'm not the best gymnast in the world.  She did land, just like lots of athletes in dangerous sports use their skill to get through dangerous situations when they aren't their best physically and/or mentally.

The comparisons to other sports were correct.  What happened here is a highly successful professional athlete had doubts while competing in her potentially dangerous sport.  You don't think the kinds of athletes I listed have doubts all the time while competing?  Milllions of words and feet of film have focused on that.  These athletes all protect themselves the way Ms. Biles did, by using their world class skills to try to finish safely (as she did here) in the face of their doubts.

What happened in Tokyo (the GOAT withdrawing from competition in the middle of a team event with no physical injury) self-evidently doesn't "happen in every sporting event."

Also as I stated in another post and will repeat here, I never used the term "quitter."  I will also restate that my stated concern was with the predictable reflexive public reaction to jump all the way to the other side and call her heroic when her own comments focused on her frustration that it wasn't fun and she wanted it to be for herself and felt hurt that she felt like she was doing it for other people.  

She may have made a good choice, I am not privy to her mental health records.  I just don't feel that what she did is as praiseworthy as most of the commentary insists that it was, and insists that there must be something wrong with me if I don't agree.

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4 minutes ago, drag it said:

 

What happened in Tokyo (the GOAT withdrawing from competition in the middle of a team event with no physical injury)

When did GOAT become this mythical term that everyone obsesses over?  I used to associated it with most decorated but now its treated like a divine title that you hold and gives you superpowers, makes you unbeatable.

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26 minutes ago, HawkY said:

When did GOAT become this mythical term that everyone obsesses over?  I used to associated it with most decorated but now its treated like a divine title that you hold and gives you superpowers, makes you unbeatable.

And pick the current GOAT in any sport. Twenty years from now, a child born today probably won't have any idea who that person is/was.

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49 minutes ago, Francis said:

 

And pick the current GOAT in any sport. Twenty years from now, a child born today probably won't have any idea who that person is/was.

Exactly, just like today no one remembers Michael Jordan, Dan Gable or Willie Mays.

Edited by NJDan

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1 hour ago, HawkY said:

When did GOAT become this mythical term that everyone obsesses over?  I used to associated it with most decorated but now its treated like a divine title that you hold and gives you superpowers, makes you unbeatable.

The term GOAT gets thrown around way beyond its literal meaning. But if you put a short list of true GOAT all time athlete nominees, she’s on that list. 

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Regarding Barry Sanders...

When his retirement became a potential reality wasn't he traveling in Europe with Detroit's management trying unsuccessfully to reach him just a week or so before the draft to confirm his status?  From what I can remember it wasn't a straight forward, "Hey, I'm hanging 'em up now," situation.  

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57 minutes ago, Rhackler said:

Regarding Barry Sanders...

When his retirement became a potential reality wasn't he traveling in Europe with Detroit's management trying unsuccessfully to reach him just a week or so before the draft to confirm his status?  From what I can remember it wasn't a straight forward, "Hey, I'm hanging 'em up now," situation.  

Not sure but could be.  He did have a bit of a chip on his shoulder and would only suffer fools so far.  

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2 hours ago, NJDan said:

Exactly, just like today no one remembers Michael Jordan, Dan Gable or Willie Mays.

Comaneci replaced by Biles. Montana by Brady. Spitz by Phelps. Robinson by Mayweather. Clark by Hamilton. And so on.

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18 minutes ago, Francis said:

Comaneci replaced by Biles. Montana by Brady. Spitz by Phelps. Robinson by Mayweather. Clark by Hamilton. And so on.

And everyone you mention is still remembered.

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Sports evolve rapidly.  I surfed around this morning and found some video of Comaneci's performance in 1976.   She was fantastic.  Really dotted her Is and crossed her Ts, but the athleticism was not remotely comparable to champions of this decade.  Additionally, you can almost taste the eating disorder.

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10 hours ago, NJDan said:

And everyone you mention is still remembered.

What did I originally write?

 "And pick the current GOAT in any sport. Twenty years from now, a child born today probably won't have any idea who that person is/was."

I stand by that. 

I once had a 20 something tell me that Juan Manual Fangio was a "Sunday Driver" compared to Lewis Hamilton and another told me that I was an idiot because I didn't believe that Winky Wright was better fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson.

My father believed that Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight ever lived and that Jim Brown could have (in his words) beaten the hell out of Muhammad Ali. How many people under thirty do you think know who any of those three were?

It's all generational. Being the so-called GOAT is like being the oldest person in the world. Maybe you are it. But you won't be for very long.

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Sports evolve rapidly.  I surfed around this morning and found some video of Comaneci's performance in 1976.   She was fantastic.  Really dotted her Is and crossed her Ts, but the athleticism was not remotely comparable to champions of this decade.  Additionally, you can almost taste the eating disorder.

Watching gymnastics from the Comaneci era, I don't recall as many mistake-- stepping out bounds, falling off the beam, stuff like that. Maybe I am misremembering. Or maybe the tricks have gotten harder, leading to more errors.

1 minute ago, Francis said:

What did I originally write?

 "And pick the current GOAT in any sport. Twenty years from now, a child born today probably won't have any idea who that person is/was."

I stand by that. 

I once had a 20 something tell me that Juan Manual Fangio was a "Sunday Driver" compared to Lewis Hamilton and another told me that I was an idiot because I didn't believe that Winky Wright was better fighter than Sugar Ray Robinson.

My father believed that Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight ever lived and that Jim Brown could have (in his words) beaten the hell out of Muhammad Ali. How many people under thirty do you think know who any of those three were?

It's all generational. Being the so-called GOAT is like being the oldest person in the world. Maybe you are it. But you won't be for very long.

I am glad you stand by your statement that is self-evidently wrong.

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4 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Watching gymnastics from the Comaneci era, I don't recall as many mistake-- stepping out bounds, falling off the beam, stuff like that. Maybe I am misremembering. Or maybe the tricks have gotten harder, leading to more errors.

I am glad you stand by your statement that is self-evidently wrong.

Help me out. How am I wrong?

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18 hours ago, drag it said:

The only person to use the word "coward" or "quitter" in this thread is you.  Neither the OP nor me nor anyone else used either word, as should have seen clear as you were "rereading" what I assume was my post(s). 

I, like several others on this thread, used the word "quit," which is the dictionary description ("to cease normal, expected, or necessary action") of what happened (along with "quitting," also a verb) and not a pejorative term like the noun, "quitter." 

Nor do I believe that I threw any "vitriol" her way.  Among other things I elaborated on what I thought were the real mental challenges faced by Simone Biles and other female gymnasts.  Saying that I was troubled by the predictable lauding of her as heroic is not vitriol.  

You described your solution to bad discourse in parts of the public sphere -- you don't listen to any of it.  Not a bad choice.  My hope is to not have to do that, preferably our society will find some ability to celebrate respectful discourse. 

My other hope is that you not directly quote people as using words that they never used. I'd settle for that, although I also wish that you would engage other people's arguments on the merits without assaulting their character.  

Ok.  If you say you didn't throw vitriol her way than you convinced me, now you have to convince yourself.  And I see you as well can't understand my point.  I literally tried to understand your point and even mentioned it was a fair point but you should have just come out and said it versus saying she quit, she is selfish, and her excuse was "soft".  So go ahead and argue about how it should be okay to criticize her by doing just that, but it is also okay for me to call you out on it when you claim you aren't.

As for public discourse, I welcome it and often engage in it with the hopes of learning something.  And I agree...more people should do it, instead of being so closed minded they truly won't listen to any other dissenting opinions.

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23 minutes ago, Francis said:

Help me out. How am I wrong?

You are wrong b/c you said that GOATs of today will not be known by kids in 20 years. In fact, GOATs of 20. 30, 40 years ago are still known by kids today. No reason to think that will change. If you MEANT to say that today's GOATS won't still be considered GOATS 20 years from now, that might be correct. 

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56 minutes ago, NJDan said:

You are wrong b/c you said that GOATs of today will not be known by kids in 20 years. In fact, GOATs of 20. 30, 40 years ago are still known by kids today. No reason to think that will change. If you MEANT to say that today's GOATS won't still be considered GOATS 20 years from now, that might be correct. 

Well I think I made it clear that I believed that today's GOATs won't be tomorrow's GOATs, so I glad that we can (possibly) agree on that. 

As for the knowledge of sporting greats among youth now and in the future,  in 2019, the NY Times had a poll conducted that measured the degree to which a nationally representative sample of 6000 Americans could identify photographs of prominent public figures. Only 32% of Gen Z (13-22 year olds) could recognize Tom Brady.  If only 1/3 of that cohort could could identify him at the peak of his fame, how many people of that age will know about him 20 years from now?  Not many I would bet.

What I never said was that those greats will be totally forgotten.  Maybe more than any other sport, wrestling has always seemed to me to be to be a sport that remembers and revers its elders. And that it how it should be for all sports.

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