Jump to content
MonagFam

Questions RE: Greco

Recommended Posts

I have asked Greco rule/match questions, but not sure I have delved more into the sport.  I did not want to hijack the thread on the Marines dropping their development center.  

 

A lifetime ago my professor in an African history class challenged us budding historians to consider the untapped market of that continent's stories.  "How many books on the American Civil War have been written?" he wondered.  Let us set aside that I have done nothing specifically with that degree or have likely read more Civil War books than African history since his plea, but the point still resonates with me.

 

  • I am guessing, in the US, Greco falls behind folkstyle and then freestyle.  Is there any reason some do not look towards Greco? I am sure all wrestling is hard, but if there were 10 competitors compared to 100, I might like my odds a little better. Or is it the Civil War analogy where folk (then free) is what is popular/readily available and that is what people are doing? 
  • What are countries that have a better Greco program than the US?
  • Are there any countries where Greco is the preferred wrestling style for fans and competitors?
  • I know some of you are very passionate, how would you sell Greco to the uninitiated or even the folk/freestyle fan?
  • I think most talk about how niche wrestling in general is and Greco may be the niche of the niche, is there anything that could make it more popular?  MMA has had a number of successful fighters who had Greco as a base, but it feels like that just led to people adding more clinchwork to their game rather than an explosion of people entering Greco.

Kind of long, but thanks for taking a look if you got this far!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as you might imagine, i have many, many thoughts on this, but, little to no time to touch on them right this second...

I will revisit with a rather lengthy post (read as drawn out diatribe) touching on all your questions...

 

BTW... don't pay attention to the meathead that will inevitably feel the need to make a random comment in here saying something about sumo suks...

mouth breathers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

I have asked Greco rule/match questions, but not sure I have delved more into the sport.  I did not want to hijack the thread on the Marines dropping their development center.  

 

A lifetime ago my professor in an African history class challenged us budding historians to consider the untapped market of that continent's stories.  "How many books on the American Civil War have been written?" he wondered.  Let us set aside that I have done nothing specifically with that degree or have likely read more Civil War books than African history since his plea, but the point still resonates with me.

 

  • I am guessing, in the US, Greco falls behind folkstyle and then freestyle.  Is there any reason some do not look towards Greco? I am sure all wrestling is hard, but if there were 10 competitors compared to 100, I might like my odds a little better. Or is it the Civil War analogy where folk (then free) is what is popular/readily available and that is what people are doing? 
  • What are countries that have a better Greco program than the US?
  • Are there any countries where Greco is the preferred wrestling style for fans and competitors?
  • I know some of you are very passionate, how would you sell Greco to the uninitiated or even the folk/freestyle fan?
  • I think most talk about how niche wrestling in general is and Greco may be the niche of the niche, is there anything that could make it more popular?  MMA has had a number of successful fighters who had Greco as a base, but it feels like that just led to people adding more clinchwork to their game rather than an explosion of people entering Greco.

Kind of long, but thanks for taking a look if you got this far!

 

 

1. Because the most practiced style of wrestling in the US is folkstyle. Its the style that tons of people in high schools across America take  part in, that youth wrestlers train in. Folkstyle is much closer to Freestlye then Greco, hence people go to FS as opposed to Greco. Why did folkstyle win?  Something to do with the US's English colonial heritage with Catch style wrestling coming over from England and evolving into folk.  

2. Russia (along with some former Soviet states),Cuba, Iran, and Turkey are the Greco powers. With Russia being number one but nowhere near as dominant as the soviet union. Bulgaria,  Hungary and to some extent Poland have experienced  severe declines in Greco so its not just the States who have dropped off. 

3. Cuba, Scandinavia, Germany, Far east Russia,  Armenia(?) , and metropolitan western Russia.  You could say continental Europe in general, but thats more of a who is the biggest loser between the two styles than popularity. Thats just being more popular than FS though. It only really has a big cultural impact in certain Eastern Russian villages, Far North Scandinavia, and Cuba I think. 

4. Throws. Upper body strength.

5. I don't know what practical steps should be taken. Producing a gold medalist or two  isn't the same thing as a healthy greco system, just something to keep in mind. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, HawkY said:

1. Because the most practiced style of wrestling in the US is folkstyle. Its the style that tons of people in high schools across America take  part in, that youth wrestlers train in. Folkstyle is much closer to Freestlye then Greco, hence people go to FS as opposed to Greco. Why did folkstyle win?  Something to do with the US's English colonial heritage with Catch style wrestling coming over from England and evolving into folk.  

2. Russia (along with some former Soviet states),Cuba, Iran, and Turkey are the Greco powers. With Russia being number one but nowhere near as dominant as the soviet union. Bulgaria,  Hungary and to some extent Poland have experienced  severe declines in Greco so its not just the States who have dropped off. 

3. Cuba, Scandinavia, Germany, Far east Russia,  Armenia(?) , and metropolitan western Russia.  You could say continental Europe in general, but thats more of a who is the biggest loser between the two styles than popularity. Thats just being more popular than FS though. It only really has a big cultural impact in certain Eastern Russian villages, Far North Scandinavia, and Cuba I think. 

4. Throws. Upper body strength.

5. I don't know what practical steps should be taken. Producing a gold medalist or two  isn't the same thing as a healthy greco system, just something to keep in mind. 

 

 

Thanks! A lot of good stuff in here! I know the throws arw impressive.  I dont know that Greco guys are actually stronger than other wrestlers, but when they throw a guy like a ragdoll, it is impressive.

 

I may be obligated to tell you as Husker fan, I am supposed to hate all things Iowa, but I definitely appreciate your reply!  Mostly kidding about that Iowa thing (we need to win a few to be relevant in the rivalry).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A long list of countries have better Greco programs than the US.

 

Folkstyle won because it was the first style embedded into the scholastic system. Which is because of the cultural reasons mentioned.
 

In a lot of Scandinavia and and mid/east Europe. Greco is much more popular than freestyle and has many hobbyist participants. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.

the reason most kids don't look at greco is based purely on fear... because it is not part of our everyday wrestling most are not introduced to it until much later in their "careers"... by that time our better youth wrestlers are used to our horrible folk rules and are extremely uncomfortable with the posture and anything upper body... they are scared to take losses to someone that they would absolutely destroy 2-1 in a folk match... they are scared to lose...

jp likes to add this to everyone of his posts pointing out something he dislikes about our wrestling culture, but, the reality is that there are lots of wrestling parents out there that only care about their 8 year old winning a local tourney and will ruin them by focusing on how to win as an 8 year old, which, does absolutely nothing for their development as an actual wrestler... you think the backwards hat dad and the mom with the skoal ring in her back pocket will allow bubba to lose to that scrub while learning how to actually wrestle????

i didn't wrestle... knew nothing about it... i expected my kids to race motorcycles with me... my oldest hated riding... i hated team sports...so, i had to look for other activities... watched a lot of fights, so, we decided to try wrestling... immediately fell in love with it... i was never worried about winning or losing because i came from a sport where we bury kids on a semi-regular basis... getting held down on the mat didn't seem like a big deal to me...

and trust me when i say, my kids did not start out winning anyway...

but after a few years they did not want to do anything else activity wise so we started wrestling freestyle after the folk season... fell in love with free... it played to their strengths... 

that was in OK and at the time the free tourneys were not super well attended... my oldest would get the opportunity to get smashed by carter young 3 times every weekend... we all became friends... carter signed up for the greco portion and his mom begged me to sign up my son because the only kid carter had to wrestle in greco was a total newbie who weighed the same as my younger kid... 

fine... max can lose 6 times this weekend... i'm cool with that... signed up my younger kid to wrestle the other one... no practice or greco knowledge at all... only knew you can't attack legs...max lost 3 more times and otto did not hurt his kid... the aftermath was that we immediately fell in love with greco after that one decision... i could not explain why then, but, i know why now... i'll explain further down...

2.

the above replies have listed many of the regions and specific countries that are better than the US programs and actually prefer greco... i'll only add Hungary to that list... i have talked to russians and they all say Hungary is the second best greco nation... but, most countries love greco and are at least as passionate about greco as free and many not only prefer greco, but, they actually look down on free as women's wrestling... talked to people who have actually spent time overseas... they all say the same thing... greco is what the people want... cadet worlds last week greco was last because that is what the people there want to see...

3.

how would i sell greco?

it will always be a tough sell in this country because backwards hat guy that almost qualified for state one year thinks his 8 year old is getting a full ride to OSU, but, i'll tell you why my kids like it and why i like it...

i always told my kids i would rather you lose going forward than win going backwards... i hate the cowardly way folk incentivizes not wrestling... i always have... it does not appeal to my personality... if you don't want to wrestle then stay home... 

in greco you can't run... you are forced to stand there and fight like a man... it appealed to my family immediately because of that... and don't think they suk at the other styles... both have won or been in the finals of every major youth tourney in this country in all styles... oldest 4 time state placer... both times he went to fargo in free he AAed... my younger was a state finalist as a freshmen and went 17-0 free and greco at junior duals wrestling up an age group... they both just prefer greco... it actually happens...

also...

you do not have to be a super athlete to succeed in greco... too many times in free (less so in folk because of the meathead rules) pure athleticism alone can get you by... that will never get you by in greco... what most greco haters do not understand is that greco is far and away the most dependent of all the styles on technique... there are subtleties that are only learned through years and years of practice... you can have a super athlete first year wrestler win state in folk or do very well in free... in greco they will not stand a chance because of the nature of the sport...

greco is a chess match disguised as a street fight... and trust me, when the lights go out and you are forced to pick someone to pick up an axe and raid the next neighborhood for food and water, you want to pick the greco guy hands down...

i would (and have) tell all of the above to kid/parent/whoever who asked about greco... i do all the time...

i know this was obnoxiously long, but, clearly i am a little fired up about greco right now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LJB said:

1.

the reason most kids don't look at greco is based purely on fear... because it is not part of our everyday wrestling most are not introduced to it until much later in their "careers"... by that time our better youth wrestlers are used to our horrible folk rules and are extremely uncomfortable with the posture and anything upper body... they are scared to take losses to someone that they would absolutely destroy 2-1 in a folk match... they are scared to lose...

jp likes to add this to everyone of his posts pointing out something he dislikes about our wrestling culture, but, the reality is that there are lots of wrestling parents out there that only care about their 8 year old winning a local tourney and will ruin them by focusing on how to win as an 8 year old, which, does absolutely nothing for their development as an actual wrestler... you think the backwards hat dad and the mom with the skoal ring in her back pocket will allow bubba to lose to that scrub while learning how to actually wrestle????

i didn't wrestle... knew nothing about it... i expected my kids to race motorcycles with me... my oldest hated riding... i hated team sports...so, i had to look for other activities... watched a lot of fights, so, we decided to try wrestling... immediately fell in love with it... i was never worried about winning or losing because i came from a sport where we bury kids on a semi-regular basis... getting held down on the mat didn't seem like a big deal to me...

and trust me when i say, my kids did not start out winning anyway...

but after a few years they did not want to do anything else activity wise so we started wrestling freestyle after the folk season... fell in love with free... it played to their strengths... 

that was in OK and at the time the free tourneys were not super well attended... my oldest would get the opportunity to get smashed by carter young 3 times every weekend... we all became friends... carter signed up for the greco portion and his mom begged me to sign up my son because the only kid carter had to wrestle in greco was a total newbie who weighed the same as my younger kid... 

fine... max can lose 6 times this weekend... i'm cool with that... signed up my younger kid to wrestle the other one... no practice or greco knowledge at all... only knew you can't attack legs...max lost 3 more times and otto did not hurt his kid... the aftermath was that we immediately fell in love with greco after that one decision... i could not explain why then, but, i know why now... i'll explain further down...

2.

the above replies have listed many of the regions and specific countries that are better than the US programs and actually prefer greco... i'll only add Hungary to that list... i have talked to russians and they all say Hungary is the second best greco nation... but, most countries love greco and are at least as passionate about greco as free and many not only prefer greco, but, they actually look down on free as women's wrestling... talked to people who have actually spent time overseas... they all say the same thing... greco is what the people want... cadet worlds last week greco was last because that is what the people there want to see...

3.

how would i sell greco?

it will always be a tough sell in this country because backwards hat guy that almost qualified for state one year thinks his 8 year old is getting a full ride to OSU, but, i'll tell you why my kids like it and why i like it...

i always told my kids i would rather you lose going forward than win going backwards... i hate the cowardly way folk incentivizes not wrestling... i always have... it does not appeal to my personality... if you don't want to wrestle then stay home... 

in greco you can't run... you are forced to stand there and fight like a man... it appealed to my family immediately because of that... and don't think they suk at the other styles... both have won or been in the finals of every major youth tourney in this country in all styles... oldest 4 time state placer... both times he went to fargo in free he AAed... my younger was a state finalist as a freshmen and went 17-0 free and greco at junior duals wrestling up an age group... they both just prefer greco... it actually happens...

also...

you do not have to be a super athlete to succeed in greco... too many times in free (less so in folk because of the meathead rules) pure athleticism alone can get you by... that will never get you by in greco... what most greco haters do not understand is that greco is far and away the most dependent of all the styles on technique... there are subtleties that are only learned through years and years of practice... you can have a super athlete first year wrestler win state in folk or do very well in free... in greco they will not stand a chance because of the nature of the sport...

greco is a chess match disguised as a street fight... and trust me, when the lights go out and you are forced to pick someone to pick up an axe and raid the next neighborhood for food and water, you want to pick the greco guy hands down...

i would (and have) tell all of the above to kid/parent/whoever who asked about greco... i do all the time...

i know this was obnoxiously long, but, clearly i am a little fired up about greco right now...

You promised a detailed reply and duly delivered! I also have read some of the recent posts so I can see how that added to the fire a bit!

 

There is a lot to chew on between this and Hawky + jp157 additions.   Also thanks for the personal experiences as well.  My oldest wrestled his Jr/Sr year (19/20 and 20/21 seasons).  I doubt he wrestles again, but part of me wondered what a Greco experience would have been like.   While I don't harbor quite the same feelings towards folkstyle, outside of his matches, I have generally enjoyed the international wrestling experience I've gotten from YouTube.  My interest started just before COVID hit, so I don't know how normal that experience has been.  

 

I found it interesting how many countries do seem to prefer it.  I'm not saying in my limited Bundesliga Ringen viewing that I could tell the preference, but I am pretty certain the last marquee matchup was usually GR.  I actually quite like the format of a dual meet with both FR/GR.  

 

I like the passion you and other Greco proponents have.  It definitely makes me want to learn more about it.  It's different and I don't know the nuances well enough to see the chess match yet.  I still have trouble telling who is forcing the action and who isn't.  It's getting a little better and that 1 point penalty + being forced down seems like quite the incentive to be more aggressive.  

 

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the greco chess match is literally an inch or less at times...

when you have to be constantly engaged the footwork and hand positioning is absolutely crucial...

a greco match can be decided in the first 15 seconds with one move...

there is little room for error...

there is no dancing around for 30 seconds darting in and out... and then another 30 seconds of dancing around after...

there is no running...

it is a constant fight from the moment the whistle blows till the last second ticks off...

there is not a better style of wrestling out there...

not even a close second...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, LJB said:

the greco chess match is literally an inch or less at times...

when you have to be constantly engaged the footwork and hand positioning is absolutely crucial...

a greco match can be decided in the first 15 seconds with one move...

there is little room for error...

there is no dancing around for 30 seconds darting in and out... and then another 30 seconds of dancing around after...

there is no running...

it is a constant fight from the moment the whistle blows till the last second ticks off...

there is not a better style of wrestling out there...

not even a close second...

I could see that.  I don't know if I can imagine the toll that has to take.  I just remember watching a match and from a point standpoint not a lot happen, but the two went three periods and were dead exhausted at the end.  

 

I also had no idea about the footwork.  It makes sense, but it's probably really easy to miss because you get focused on the upper body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, MonagFam said:

I could see that.  I don't know if I can imagine the toll that has to take.  I just remember watching a match and from a point standpoint not a lot happen, but the two went three periods and were dead exhausted at the end.  

 

I also had no idea about the footwork.  It makes sense, but it's probably really easy to miss because you get focused on the upper body.

to be honest, i never paid attention to the footwork until i started reffing... 

you pretty much only watch the legs when reffing greco...

then sitting in high level practices and paying attention to what the coaches were showing and realizing why...

it is the reason why when the mouth breathers start saying sumo that i lose my damn mind...

there is so much that goes into high level greco...

and trust me when i say this country has such a dearth of high level greco that it makes it hard to watch...

fargo greco is almost unwatchable...

domestic senior greco is almost unwatchable...

then when i see some US wrestling personality make a comment about what they are watching it usually makes me cringe...

and yes, i understand i probably sound like an elitist @sshole...

but... 

this is what i go through every summer...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One reason why Greco is not very popular and it is a hard thing to market, which others have alluded to, is that is just brutally brutally hard to compete in. I had a successful Greco career from cadets to university, but to take it into the professional level is just a pretty miserable life a lot of the time; the training load on the ribs, shoulders, and back is extraordinary painful. Almost every match involves being headbutted, punched, choked, having fingers bent, landing on your head (from your move or theirs), and having someone try to dislocate your ribs. There is so little separation, physically and in scoring opportunities, between opponents that it just gets pretty rough. A lot of us don’t mind that kind of stuff, but doing it every day of your life, combined with traveling to all those countries mentioned above, cutting weight, getting almost literally no recognition or financial compensation, and knowing there probably is not a college coaching gig or clinic circuit for you on the other side makes people walk away or never pursue it in the first place. Having no college scholarships outside of Northern Michigan doesn’t help either.

I love Greco, but I am not sure it will ever be very popular. Despite the battles within the battles being fascinating to us in this thread, it often looks like nothing is happening, even to wrestling fans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most dudes don’t wrestle Greco because of fear?  There are a myriad of reasons lots of hammers in the US don’t choose to wrestle Greco, but I’m certain fear isn’t one of them. Fear is you primary reason…seriously?  Perhaps when you watch it it’s exciting but when they watch it it’s boring as hell and they choose not to do it. 
 

And let’s be honest in a real mans fight if you couldn’t punch, you’d be attacking upper and lower body. Greco is a limited version of real wrestling. 

Edited by AnklePicker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Most dudes don’t wrestle Greco because of fear?  There are a myriad of reasons lots of hammers in the US don’t choose to wrestle Greco, but I’m certain fear isn’t one of them. Fear is you primary reason…seriously?  Perhaps when you watch it it’s exciting but when they watch it it’s boring as hell and they choose not to do it. 
 
And let’s be honest in a real mans fight if you couldn’t punch, you’d be attacking upper and lower body. Greco is a limited version of real wrestling. 

Most kids don’t wrestle Greco partially because of fear. They don’t want to get thrown. They also have no coaches who can teach them how not to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As hawkY said the biggest reason Greco isn’t as popular here is that everyone starts with folkstyle. People hate change and it’s a huge change from folkstyle to Greco. Most kids wrestle for years in youth before they are ever introduced to international styles. They were taught singles, doubles, high crotches, and taught that throws and headlocks are junk moves. Then try asking them to learn basically a whole new sport that is extremely technical and it is a tough sell. It’s hard to even make the argument that it will help them in folk. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:


Most kids don’t wrestle Greco partially because of fear. They don’t want to get thrown. They also have no coaches who can teach them how not to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Disagree. Where I live in NJ there aren’t Greco opportunities. No coaches or clubs doing it. It has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with preference and opportunities. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, LJB said:

9 jersey kids at cadet Greco at Fargo and 29 at juniors...

they found a way...

one thing for sure, sone in the garden state are damn sure not scared of making excuses...

Where did you make up those numbers? 13 at 16U and 12 at Juniors.

And for the other posters- not a lot in NJ but not none either.

Over the years  Eclipse and Red Nose and Scorpions lately do the most in regards to Fargo participation. Seagulls had a lot at various times including this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

lol- that sounds about right. Unfortunately.

the point(s) still stand...

you can be 'bout it 'bout it or you can makes excuses...

i'm from OK originally... trust me when i say OK is no more versed in greco than NJ...

but...

we did something about it...

regardless...

greco is the best style hands down...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...