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NJDan

Greco in a Nutshell

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25 minutes ago, LJB said:

Only participation numbers and people who have actually been overseas...

other than that...

What participation numbers?  

Are you saying more entries at worlds?  Or are you actually saying more people compete in Greco worldwide than compete in Freestyle.

By the way greco is awesome and was my favorite style to compete in.  

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3 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

The best dudes are very bad men indeed, and good stuff like that is what makes greco fun, but I also feel our excitement is a tad artificially created because so little happens in so many of the collective greco minutes wrestled.  

Or…I could be horribly jaded because US greco is so primitive…

I am NOT asserting or declaring that it needs to be changed, I think all the changing of rules is a sign of weakness and is generally nonsense.

 

All I know is high level GR matches are far from snooze fests. 

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JB commentating : i have noticed a trend in greco

guys play possum the first period so they get put down in par terre, so that they can win one one on criteria after they get on top in the second.

 

i was told stalling doesnt happen in international 

 i thought would like to see the forced par terre in freestyle... instead of the shot clock.

just dont give the point.

but after someone else noticed the stalling tactic i think no

Edited by GockeS

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10 minutes ago, boconnell said:

What participation numbers?  

Are you saying more entries at worlds?  Or are you actually saying more people compete in Greco worldwide than compete in Freestyle.

By the way greco is awesome and was my favorite style to compete in.  

More entries at worlds pretty much every year without question...

the rest can’t be really “proved”, but, just talk to people...

or don’t...

most in this country can’t fathom that what they don’t like isn’t across the board on this planet...

it’s pretty typical...

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4 minutes ago, LJB said:

More entries at worlds pretty much every year without question...

the rest can’t be really “proved”, but, just talk to people...

or don’t...

most in this country can’t fathom that what they don’t like isn’t across the board on this planet...

it’s pretty typical...

More entries at worlds makes me think Greco is definitely more widespread and is practiced in more countries. 

When considering the big wrestling countries worldwide (Russia, Iran, Japan, Cuba, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc...), which pay more attention to Greco?  Georgia probably.  Cuba maybe?  Maybe China?  It seems like most countries follow their FS stars far more closely.  I wonder about participation in those countries national and large meets.  

Edited by boconnell

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10 minutes ago, LJB said:

Counting is hard...

 

Forgot Hancock won a match. Correction 1-5. Not exactly making a case to not put those resources into the much better and more entertaining style. But you keep hanging that backwards hat on that popularity stance, it’s gotten you this far in life. 

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2 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Forgot Hancock won a match. Correction 1-5. Not exactly making a case to not put those resources into the much better and more entertaining style. But you keep hanging that backwards hat on that popularity stance, it’s gotten you this far in life. 

Won a bunch of matches at cadets...

wrestles for 3 medals...

pay attention more than once every 4 years and then whine and mewl...

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1 hour ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Forgot Hancock won a match. Correction 1-5. Not exactly making a case to not put those resources into the much better and more entertaining style. But you keep hanging that backwards hat on that popularity stance, it’s gotten you this far in life. 

Would the USA do better if it just made its second place freestylers into a Greco team?

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41 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Would the USA do better if it just made its second place freestylers into a Greco team?

Yes, unreservedly yes, but I’d expand it to top 3 guys.  Most of those dudes did Greco up through Fargo at least. US Freestyle commands 90+% of the wrestling talent pool.  The exceptions in my lifetime MAYBE being spencer mango, kamal bey and Hancock.  That said, first fargo I wrestled in I watched spencer mango got absolutely shelled by henry cejudo in the junior greco finals.  10 points was a tech, I think he lost 12 or 14-0 in very short order.

In the US, greco is what you do because you like to wrestle but can’t hang with the best athletes…

If we did that, the Greco team MIGHT include:
60- Nato or Vito
67- Joey Mckenna or Nick Lee
77- Jason Nolf (burroughs has never hit an upper body throw in his life)
87- Bo Nickal (same with zahid as burroughs)
97- Kollin Moore or Kyven Gadsen, though I’d prefer Zillmer the most
130- Pick anyone: Bradley, Gwiz, Nelson, Paris, Kirkvliet, they’d all be contenders in the US bracket.

The fact that I believe wholeheartedly many of those guys could athleticism their way onto the team says enough I think.

Edited by Drew87

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2 hours ago, NJDan said:

Would the USA do better if it just made its second place freestylers into a Greco team?

 

1 hour ago, Drew87 said:

Yes, unreservedly yes, but I’d expand it to top 3 guys.  Most of those dudes did Greco up through Fargo at least. US Freestyle commands 90+% of the wrestling talent pool.  The exceptions in my lifetime MAYBE being spencer mango, kamal bey and Hancock.  That said, first fargo I wrestled in I watched spencer mango got absolutely shelled by henry cejudo in the junior greco finals.  10 points was a tech, I think he lost 12 or 14-0 in very short order.

In the US, greco is what you do because you like to wrestle but can’t hang with the best athletes…

If we did that, the Greco team MIGHT include:
60- Nato or Vito
67- Joey Mckenna or Nick Lee
77- Jason Nolf (burroughs has never hit an upper body throw in his life)
87- Bo Nickal (same with zahid as burroughs)
97- Kollin Moore or Kyven Gadsen, though I’d prefer Zillmer the most
130- Pick anyone: Bradley, Gwiz, Nelson, Paris, Kirkvliet, they’d all be contenders in the US bracket.

The fact that I believe wholeheartedly many of those guys could athleticism their way onto the team says enough I think.

Um, no.

Maybe take a look at actual examples on the senior level instead of something that happened in high school (although there's counter examples there too). Freestyle World/Olympic team members like Tyler Graff and Daniel Dennis did not have success switching over recently. Ness had a style that looked like it could potentially be good for Greco and had a Greco Fargo title. These guys were not close to being on a Greco National Team.

The guys who generally have the most success in Greco start specializing in it after high school or continue it throughout their Springs/Summers. Most D1 folkstyle coaches aren't letting their stars wrestle Greco in the summer. Especially not when they have a new RTC facility.

You may not be familiar with some names in Greco but that's more because they haven't been given the same attention as the college guys. Doesn't mean they aren't still high level athletes. You can't step away for 5 years to do folkstyle and expect to still be on the same level as a guy you may have beaten at Fargo.

It's more than just having some upper body stuff like the guys you listed. Some days at the Olympic Training Center they would do crossovers where the Greco guys would work par terre with the freestylers. Who do you think had more success?

I will concede that a really good heavyweight could make the shift and potentially do well for obvious reasons. Or 97kg. Zillmer focused on Greco first before going back to freestyle. He still won't be making a team over Hancock any time soon.

 

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1 hour ago, Relentless125 said:

 

Um, no.

Maybe take a look at actual examples on the senior level instead of something that happened in high school (although there's counter examples there too). Freestyle World/Olympic team members like Tyler Graff and Daniel Dennis did not have success switching over recently. Ness had a style that looked like it could potentially be good for Greco and had a Greco Fargo title. These guys were not close to being on a Greco National Team.

The guys who generally have the most success in Greco start specializing in it after high school or continue it throughout their Springs/Summers. Most D1 folkstyle coaches aren't letting their stars wrestle Greco in the summer. Especially not when they have a new RTC facility.

You may not be familiar with some names in Greco but that's more because they haven't been given the same attention as the college guys. Doesn't mean they aren't still high level athletes. You can't step away for 5 years to do folkstyle and expect to still be on the same level as a guy you may have beaten at Fargo.

It's more than just having some upper body stuff like the guys you listed. Some days at the Olympic Training Center they would do crossovers where the Greco guys would work par terre with the freestylers. Who do you think had more success?

I will concede that a really good heavyweight could make the shift and potentially do well for obvious reasons. Or 97kg. Zillmer focused on Greco first before going back to freestyle. He still won't be making a team over Hancock any time soon.

 

Obvious reasons being?

I’m not saying Greco athletes are bad athletes, I’m saying they aren’t the best in the wrestling community.

The discussion may be a tad hyperbolic, but the fact of pecking order, focus, and talent concentration are very real.

US Greco is like US soccer or US Rugby.  It’s rather far down the pecking order in terms of recruiting the very best.  Wrestling is already a niche sport, Greco is the niche topic of the niche sport in the US.

 

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Just watched a gold medal match … Hungary vs KGZ … the best of the best!  Zzzzzzzzzz.  
 

A highlight … After passivity point .. Hungary put down and KGZ trying to turn Hungary with absolutely no hint that he will … gets to loose front headlock and Hungary simply stands up and is out … KGZ says huh?  He stood up?  Complains to ref with arms out.  John Smith tells us that standing up was fair.  LOL.

push out and passivity point in second.  Hungary wins 2-1. John Smith quote “pushing pushing pushing’ sums up 95% of the match.  
 

For those that enjoyed … I recently painted the walls of my dining room.  One patch is drying a bit faster than other areas.  An interesting dryout pattern is emerging.  An upper corner actually had a small drip form.  If interested I can keep writing …  can come over and stare at it too.


 

 

Edited by nom

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37 minutes ago, nom said:

Just watch a good medal match … Hungary vs KGZ … the best of the best!  Zzzzzzzzzz.  
 

A highlight … After passivity point .. Hungary put down and KGZ trying to turn Hungary with absolutely no hint that he will … gets to loose front headlock and Hungary simply stands up and is out … KGZ says huh?  He stood up?  Complains to ref with arms out.  John Smith tells us that standing up was fair.  LOL.

push out and passivity point in second.  Hungary wins 2-1. John Smith quote “pushing pushing pushing’ sums up 95% of the match.  
 

For those that enjoyed … I recently painted the walls of my dining room.  One patch is drying a bit faster than other areas.  An interesting dryout pattern is emerging.  An upper corner actually had a small drip form.  If interested I can keep writing …  can come over and stare at it too.


 

 

Lol

uh-oh, better watch out, the mountain trolls of greco pass are about to descend, with battle cries deriding you as an individual of plebeian intelligence, then singing the mountain region’s national anthem “greco won’t miss you”

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I took a long break from posting on this forum, but man oh man, LJB has to be the most snarky/condescending human being I have ever seen on a forum. He has got to be the most unlikeable guy on here. I don't know how some of you constantly engage with this guy; and his posting style?

blah blah blah....

blah......

blah blah blah blah.......

How brutal....

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12 minutes ago, snapspinscore said:

I took a long break from posting on this forum, but man oh man, LJB has to be the most snarky/condescending human being I have ever seen on a forum. He has got to be the most unlikeable guy on here. I don't know how some of you constantly engage with this guy; and his posting style?

blah blah blah....

blah......

blah blah blah blah.......

How brutal....

I put him on ignore a while back. It's an option.

 

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So the best guy in the US in greco is not the best greco guy in the US because someone else chose not to wrestle greco??  Some peoples logic on here is...well...not logical.  Not to mention what great support you are showing our olympic greco athletes by saying if so and so chose to wrestle greco they would be better than you.  SMH

By the way...LJB is awesome.  But so are some of the guys who don't like him.  Ha!

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4 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Obvious reasons being?

I’m not saying Greco athletes are bad athletes, I’m saying they aren’t the best in the wrestling community.

The discussion may be a tad hyperbolic, but the fact of pecking order, focus, and talent concentration are very real.

US Greco is like US soccer or US Rugby.  It’s rather far down the pecking order in terms of recruiting the very best.  Wrestling is already a niche sport, Greco is the niche topic of the niche sport in the US.

 

this is all true...

the only thing i will add is that the second guy in free would get wrecked by our greco guys in greco...

it is not as simple as just put our second string guy in there...

watch any domestic greco and this can be seen...

the real issue is that international guys have been training greco exclusively since they were 10 and training against other guys who have been doing the same...

our top greco guys typically did not start focusing on greco exclusively until late teens/early 20s...

then they are training with 2 others who did the same...

how can anyone expect our results against to magically appear in that situation...

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26 minutes ago, LJB said:

this is all true...

the only thing i will add is that the second guy in free would get wrecked by our greco guys in greco...

it is not as simple as just put our second string guy in there...

watch any domestic greco and this can be seen...

the real issue is that international guys have been training greco exclusively since they were 10 and training against other guys who have been doing the same...

our top greco guys typically did not start focusing on greco exclusively until late teens/early 20s...

then they are training with 2 others who did the same...

how can anyone expect our results against to magically appear in that situation...

Agree to some degree but our freestylers don’t train exclusively since they were 10 and they seem to fare just fine. Heck Burroughs didn’t train it at all until he was in college. It’s not just that. 

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