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Greco in a Nutshell

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9 minutes ago, LJB said:

Are you blaming or giving credit to zadick this week?

more just making up whatever fits your narrative better?

asking for a friend...

Are we even allowed to say that name during the Olympics?  Or is the censorship just connected to his brother.  

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5 minutes ago, MadMardigain said:

Are we even allowed to say that name during the Olympics?  Or is the censorship just connected to his brother.  

As long as you preface whatever you say with Greco suks, I think you are good to go...

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11 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

And what happens in Greco when people push too much? Boring stuff or exciting stuff?

What rule could you possibly use to force people to get bodylocks from UHs (I don't agree that this is the only purpose of an UH)? It is passive already in the rules, but only one factor which goes into that call.

 

going for a body lock is not the only purpose of getting an UH of course.  There are many moves from here but if you watch a number of guys they actually don't try for much but rather pull the under hook out when the other wrestler engages.  I am just saying this a form of passivity.

Regarding the push out in GR I don't mind the rule in this style.  Since you are standing more straight up, it is easier to circle back in than going straight out of bounds.  

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going for a body lock is not the only purpose of getting an UH of course.  There are many moves from here but if you watch a number of guys they actually don't try for much but rather pull the under hook out when the other wrestler engages.  I am just saying this a form of passivity.
Regarding the push out in GR I don't mind the rule in this style.  Since you are standing more straight up, it is easier to circle back in than going straight out of bounds.  

But it’s already a form of passivity in the rules. So you don’t need another rule for it, just actually enforcing that one. Problem is, there are only a couple refs in the country who may be able to call that with appropriate nuance and the rest would be a mess.
Since it’s easier to circle in in GR, we should make the mat smaller. Welcome to the team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

 

I think this is right. I don't know if Lindland is a "bad coach" per se, but a major job of the head coach is to set the culture and the climate for success, and that is absolutely not happening in USA Greco right now.  It is very much tough guy bull**** and alternating between complete neglect and chronic overtraining of the athletes, by all accounts I have heard. The technique is bad, but the morale is even worse. It's a tough job, and it's not all his fault, but he is extremely replaceable. I don't know the guy, so I don't want to be too insulting, but he is far from a visionary who can turn around a whole program. 

Thats funny. Thats not the vibe I got at all when I see interviews of Lindland or him interacting with the athletes. I got the impression that he wants to get along with them and doesn't want to hurt any feelings.  I completely read him wrong. 

How much control does  a head coach actually have in that type of  position. He obv doesn't pick the  team in the US. Does he have full control over the budget and hiring? I wouldn't expect a head coach position like this to personally train the athletes and  individually customize .  

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3 minutes ago, GoNotQuietly said:


But it’s already a form of passivity in the rules. So you don’t need another rule for it, just actually enforcing that one. Problem is, there are only a couple refs in the country who may be able to call that with appropriate nuance and the rest would be a mess.
Since it’s easier to circle in in GR, we should make the mat smaller. Welcome to the team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pulling an under hook out is already a form of passivity in the rules?  I don't recall this.  Because it is easier to circle back in does not mean the circle should be smaller.  How much smaller should it be?  I'm not sure what team are you referring to?  

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11 hours ago, LJB said:

Are you blaming or giving credit to zadick this week?

more just making up whatever fits your narrative better?

asking for a friend...

How long has lindland been head coach? 

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11 hours ago, John Morgan said:

Pulling an under hook out is already a form of passivity in the rules?  I don't recall this.  Because it is easier to circle back in does not mean the circle should be smaller.  How much smaller should it be?  I'm not sure what team are you referring to?  

"Criteria to consider a wrestler as passive: • Evading attacks without counterattacks • Grapping opponent wrists without starting an attack • Attacking without any direct contact with the opponent • Regaining initial position right after beginning an attack • Fake attacks (Simulation) • Evading into and maintaining in the passivity zone • Avoiding the Wrestling in the center of the mat • Fixing his opponent in the passivity zone • No hooking despite good position • Defensive wrestling"

Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is always possible since a lot gets lost in translation with UWW rules, and from what I have heard from various refs, moving from a superior position to an inferior position is a form of passivity. It doesn't often get called, because someone is usually doing something more apparent (head down, backing up, blocking), but it is part of what they are supposed to look for all else being equal.

As to how much smaller, I think that just using the beginning of the passivity zone as OOB for greco would be fine.  That way you don't have to change all the mats.

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

"Criteria to consider a wrestler as passive: • Evading attacks without counterattacks • Grapping opponent wrists without starting an attack • Attacking without any direct contact with the opponent • Regaining initial position right after beginning an attack • Fake attacks (Simulation) • Evading into and maintaining in the passivity zone • Avoiding the Wrestling in the center of the mat • Fixing his opponent in the passivity zone • No hooking despite good position • Defensive wrestling"

Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is always possible since a lot gets lost in translation with UWW rules, and from what I have heard from various refs, moving from a superior position to an inferior position is a form of passivity. It doesn't often get called, because someone is usually doing something more apparent (head down, backing up, blocking), but it is part of what they are supposed to look for all else being equal.

As to how much smaller, I think that just using the beginning of the passivity zone as OOB for greco would be fine.  That way you don't have to change all the mats.

Thank you for doing the research.  Is this for GR or both GR and FS?  There are a number of points to consider but I don't see specifically anything that says removing an under hook is passive.  Maybe "hooking" is meant the same as "under hooking?"  Who knows. 

Regardless, I don't see referees knowledgeable enough to make these calls anyway.  It seems they are trained to mandate a "passivity" call within seconds and then award a followup point.  I believe the purpose of this is to ensure there are no ties after regulation so heaven forbid, there would be an overtime.  

Anyway, I appreciate your perspective but I don't agree because I don't want GR to become a form of sumo.  Rule making does matter in how the wrestlers compete and from what I see there is less risk taking today.  

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6 hours ago, GoNotQuietly said:

"Criteria to consider a wrestler as passive: • Evading attacks without counterattacks • Grapping opponent wrists without starting an attack • Attacking without any direct contact with the opponent • Regaining initial position right after beginning an attack • Fake attacks (Simulation) • Evading into and maintaining in the passivity zone • Avoiding the Wrestling in the center of the mat • Fixing his opponent in the passivity zone • No hooking despite good position • Defensive wrestling"

Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is always possible since a lot gets lost in translation with UWW rules, and from what I have heard from various refs, moving from a superior position to an inferior position is a form of passivity. It doesn't often get called, because someone is usually doing something more apparent (head down, backing up, blocking), but it is part of what they are supposed to look for all else being equal.

As to how much smaller, I think that just using the beginning of the passivity zone as OOB for greco would be fine.  That way you don't have to change all the mats.

These rules are written so that referees can put whomever they want on passivity first.  I am astonished how many people don’t see the power this no-tie last score system gives to referees.  Unless you blow your opponent off the mat, if they want you to win, you get put on passivity first.  

It is laughably common, and makes risk-taking requirements over the course of a match incredibly lopsided.  IN FREESTYLE, lack of overtime in this era of steps-outs and passivity points really cheapens the style.  The flip-flopping onus to attack, or anticipated onus to attack, means that you don’t get real engagement until the last 1:30 typically.

I this is not a bash of passivity points and step outs, it is a bash of the lack of overtime.  We are missing great wrestling with no overtime.

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