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5 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

 I’m all about being critical of our team, but I don’t think willingness to practice because it isn’t fun is a fair representation. Our wrestlers work hard, they just aren’t training the right way (plus I’m sure a million other things). I don’t think work ethic is the problem though. 

i don't disagree with that at all...

but...

we now have 4 dedicated greco outfits in this country...

i dont think our athletes are not working hard, but, they just do not have the resources (for lack of a better word) to approach greco the way it needs to be for long term international success...

i hate to do this because the majority of you guys have a perception of me, but, my kid was at cadet worlds... took 5th... loss in the semis on criteria... bronze medal match 4-2 loss... he gets to train greco at most 3 months a year and even then has to be split with the womens style... they had 3 national team camps before worlds... that was it...

in those 3 camps our coaches were showing great stuff, but, their time is mostly spent trying to get kids to actually understand real greco instead of the finer points...

if he has 3-1/2 months and 4 national greco camps does that mean one point and a medal?

possibly...

he is right there with the best in the world and he does not get to train what he wants...

that is the fight for greco in this country...

i watched colton schultz at the OTC for a long time have to train with guys who were 50lbs lighter than him... then he wrestles a behemoth of a man in conn at trials finals and has no concept of that feel even though schultz's greco is light years technically ahead of coon...

we need more guys to buy into greco much earlier and much more support for greco from our leadership...

we aren't going to get that without results...

catch 22 anyone?

i do feel like we are getting better... our performance at cadet worlds was overall much better that in the past...

if we replicate those same results at juniors (a good possibility) then it shows we are starting to get on the right path...

and results are not just medals...

just winning matches...

being competitive in matches...

that is a start and something that can be built upon...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

i don't disagree with that at all...

but...

we now have 4 dedicated greco outfits in this country...

i dont think our athletes are not working hard, but, they just do not have the resources (for lack of a better word) to approach greco the way it needs to be for long term international success...

i hate to do this because the majority of you guys have a perception of me, but, my kid was at cadet worlds... took 5th... loss in the semis on criteria... bronze medal match 4-2 loss... he gets to train greco at most 3 months a year and even then has to be split with the womens style... they had 3 national team camps before worlds... that was it...

in those 3 camps our coaches were showing great stuff, but, their time is mostly spent trying to get kids to actually understand real greco instead of the finer points...

if he has 3-1/2 months and 4 national greco camps does that mean one point and a medal?

possibly...

he is right there with the best in the world and he does not get to train what he wants...

that is the fight for greco in this country...

i watched colton schultz at the OTC for a long time have to train with guys who were 50lbs lighter than him... then he wrestles a behemoth of a man in conn at trials finals and has no concept of that feel even though schultz's greco is light years technically ahead of coon...

we need more guys to buy into greco much earlier and much more support for greco from our leadership...

we aren't going to get that without results...

catch 22 anyone?

i do feel like we are getting better... our performance at cadet worlds was overall much better that in the past...

if we replicate those same results at juniors (a good possibility) then it shows we are starting to get on the right path...

and results are not just medals...

just winning matches...

being competitive in matches...

that is a start and something that can be built upon...

Thanks for the details. Super interesting. I didn’t realize Schultz didn’t have real training partners at the OTC. That’s wild

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It sounds like we don't need a new Greco coach it sounds like we need a Greco Benefactor/Sugar Daddy. Someone who can come in and donate a huge lump sum that would allow for athletes and coaches to train Greco year round while bringing in and paying top coaches/athletes to make it their home. Coupled with a flexible local school district and community college to allow those who choose to continue their education while specializing in Greco and Greco only (if they so choose). 

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6 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Also congrats on your kid’s success. That’s pretty cool

thank you...

he is not happy with the results because the semis loss was totally on him... was up 5-3 and gave up a TD with 20 seconds left because of one slight mistake...

and that is the difference at the highest levels...

one slight mistake...

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4 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

It sounds like we don't need a new Greco coach it sounds like we need a Greco Benefactor/Sugar Daddy. Someone who can come in and donate a huge lump sum that would allow for athletes and coaches to train Greco year round while bringing in and paying top coaches/athletes to make it their home. Coupled with a flexible local school district and community college to allow those who choose to continue their education while specializing in Greco and Greco only (if they so choose). 

this would not hurt, but, we all remember what happened the last time a sugar daddy tried to save wrestling...

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I mean I don't really disagree with this.  And I guess I wasn't even really disagreeing with LJB (that folk may not really help for free/greco) - like you said I think the issue is folkstylers are used to trying to get out but you don't have to in par terre.  I still don't think par terre defense is all that much different than bottom stalling, but most teams don't practice bottom stalling...

Par terre defense is just as active as par terre offense. You can't just turtle up like stalling in folkstyle. You have to constantly move and shift your hips, crawl forward to break locks, etc...

You can't compare the two. It's just a completely different thing with the ability to lock hands. LJB is pretty much right. Across all styles, Americans put tons of effort and focus into neutral wrestling. Our freestylers are also below average in par terre for the most part. That is twice as costly in greco, which is mostly a par terre contest at this point. We're our weakest in the only position that really scores.

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I have a question about the Stefanowitz match last night.  He was put back down after he stood up in Par Terre.  What was the reason behind him going back down after he stood up?    

Also, can anyone answer how many of our RTC's have a dedicated Greco staff.  For example, I would be curious to know how much Greco ,Braxton Amos for example, is training at Wisconsin in the college wrestling off season and who is coaching him there.  Or Schultz at Arizona State, do they have a dedicated Greco coach there? It would be awesome to see the RTC's invest more in Greco athletes and coaches. 

 

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9 minutes ago, LJB said:

this would not hurt, but, we all remember what happened the last time a sugar daddy tried to save wrestling...

Over the years, a lot of non-psychotic people have made enormous financial contributions to our sport. DuPont was the exception, not the rule.

Congrats to your son. That's an amazing accomplishment. 

 

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2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Par terre defense is just as active as par terre offense. You can't just turtle up like stalling in folkstyle. You have to constantly move and shift your hips, crawl forward to break locks, etc...

You can't compare the two. It's just a completely different thing with the ability to lock hands. LJB is pretty much right. Across all styles, Americans put tons of effort and focus into neutral wrestling. Our freestylers are also below average in par terre for the most part. That is twice as costly in greco, which is mostly a par terre contest at this point. We're our weakest in the only position that really scores.

This all makes sense, but I don’t think we are below average in freestyle par terre anymore. We’ve improved dramatically over the last cycle

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1 minute ago, jbai3_12 said:

I have a question about the Stefanowitz match last night.  He was put back down after he stood up in Par Terre.  What was the reason behind him going back down after he stood up?    

Also, can anyone answer how many of our RTC's have a dedicated Greco staff.  For example, I would be curious to know how much Greco ,Braxton Amos for example, is training at Wisconsin in the college wrestling off season and who is coaching him there.  Or Schultz at Arizona State, do they have a dedicated Greco coach there? It would be awesome to see the RTC's invest more in Greco athletes and coaches. 

 

He was put back down because the ref thought he moved before the whistle. 

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24 minutes ago, LJB said:

i don't disagree with that at all...

but...

we now have 4 dedicated greco outfits in this country...

i dont think our athletes are not working hard, but, they just do not have the resources (for lack of a better word) to approach greco the way it needs to be for long term international success...

i hate to do this because the majority of you guys have a perception of me, but, my kid was at cadet worlds... took 5th... loss in the semis on criteria... bronze medal match 4-2 loss... he gets to train greco at most 3 months a year and even then has to be split with the womens style... they had 3 national team camps before worlds... that was it...

in those 3 camps our coaches were showing great stuff, but, their time is mostly spent trying to get kids to actually understand real greco instead of the finer points...

if he has 3-1/2 months and 4 national greco camps does that mean one point and a medal?

possibly...

he is right there with the best in the world and he does not get to train what he wants...

that is the fight for greco in this country...

i watched colton schultz at the OTC for a long time have to train with guys who were 50lbs lighter than him... then he wrestles a behemoth of a man in conn at trials finals and has no concept of that feel even though schultz's greco is light years technically ahead of coon...

we need more guys to buy into greco much earlier and much more support for greco from our leadership...

we aren't going to get that without results...

catch 22 anyone?

i do feel like we are getting better... our performance at cadet worlds was overall much better that in the past...

if we replicate those same results at juniors (a good possibility) then it shows we are starting to get on the right path...

and results are not just medals...

just winning matches...

being competitive in matches...

that is a start and something that can be built upon...

Had a friend who won multiple fargo greco titles. He never trained it and didn't even really know what he was doing. Only did it because he was there for freestyle. He explained his strategy to me as "I just try to get a body lock so I can get on top and gut them." He was a great wrestler, but it speaks volume that he was able to win titles without a real knowledge of the nuances of greco or even practicing it outside of the team camp before the tournament.

Until it's not viewed as a "well you're already here" type of thing, we're going to be behind. Unfortunately, it's hard to imagine when folkstyle translates so easily to freestyle. We love grabbing legs in this country.

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6 minutes ago, jbai3_12 said:

I have a question about the Stefanowitz match last night.  He was put back down after he stood up in Par Terre.  What was the reason behind him going back down after he stood up?    

he was put back down because off the whistle he immediately grabbed hands and then did a folk style switch...

the grabbing of the hands was the issue...

if he did not do the switch then he would have just been warned to open up until he did and the top wrestler would have been given more time to work...

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1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

Had a friend who won multiple fargo greco titles. He never trained it and didn't even really know what he was doing. Only did it because he was there for freestyle. He explained his strategy to me as "I just try to get a body lock so I can get on top and gut them." He was a great wrestler, but it speaks volume that he was able to win titles without a real knowledge of the nuances of greco or even practicing it outside of the team camp before the tournament.

Until it's not viewed as a "well you're already here" type of thing, we're going to be behind. Unfortunately, it's hard to imagine when folkstyle translates so easily to freestyle. We love grabbing legs in this country.

100%...

fargo greco is not real greco overall...

there are always a few bright spots, but, overall it is unwatchable...

metcalf won lots of greco titles and he will tell you with no hesitation he does not know greco but could snap down a kid like he was picking on a cripple...

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4 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

This all makes sense, but I don’t think we are below average in freestyle par terre anymore. We’ve improved dramatically over the last cycle

We're better, but I think average at best. Gilman has nothing. JO has nothing. Dake is good. DT is hit or miss, but usually nothing against good competition these days. Snyder has nothing. Gable has nothing for the most part.

Outside of our OTT champs, JB can double into a lace, but nothing otherwise. J'Den has nothing. Gwiz has nothing. Fix hasn't hit a trap arm gut against a good guy in 3 years. Spencer is pretty good. Zain has nothing. Yianni has nothing. McKenna has nothing. Green has an occasional lace. Zahid has nothing. I don't remember Bo having anything. Who am I missing?

I will say most of our good guys are at least solid defensively, so in a better place than greco there.

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3 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

We're better, but I think average at best. Gilman has nothing. JO has nothing. Dake is good. DT is hit or miss, but usually nothing against good competition these days. Snyder has nothing. Gable has nothing for the most part.

Outside of our OTT champs, JB can double into a lace, but nothing otherwise. J'Den has nothing. Gwiz has nothing. Fix hasn't hit a trap arm gut against a good guy in 3 years. Spencer is pretty good. Zain has nothing. Yianni has nothing. McKenna has nothing. Green has an occasional lace. Zahid has nothing. I don't remember Bo having anything. Who am I missing?

I will say most of our good guys are at least solid defensively, so in a better place than greco there.

truth...

plus, let's be honest... the vast majority of free guys even internationally do not make par terre a real focus... 

one of the reasons sadulaeuv is who he is... he cares about par terre...

 

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Just now, LJB said:

truth...

plus, let's be honest... the vast majority of free guys even internationally do not make par terre a real focus... 

one of the reasons sadulaeuv is who he is... he cares about par terre...

 

Maybe the most dominant gut in history? I can't remember another. Great on his feet obviously and has had to rely on that more at the heavier weight, but he made his name 10-0ing everybody in the world for 3 years.

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I don’t think the issue is our coaching/training at the national level. It’s that most of our Greco guys transitioned to it full time at some point in their late teens or early 20s while the rest of the world trains in it from the youth level all the way through.

Every cycle everyone on here complains about our coaches or training, as if there is some little thing we need to fix to compete with the rest of the world.

The fact is our wrestling system is built around folk style, then freestyle and then Greco gets the crumbs. The problems we have are a reflection of development issues early on, not necessarily coaching at the senior level.
 

As long as that’s the case we’ll get a Hancock here or there, but most of our team will reflect the system we have. It is what it is.

Edited by BuckyBadger

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

That’s on you my man. The rest of us aren’t crazy enough to ask a high level Greco guy to turn us. 
  
that was a poor decision on your part. 

Oh, so it was a "poor decision" to go to Sweden to learn greco from guys who only trained greco and to be mentored by a world medalist for an entire year?  Not to mention chase around gorgeous, very willing Nordic beauties at night while my ribs healed?  Gotcha, chief.  If only I'd had that sage advice in my youth I could have avoided such a horrid experience...

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2 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

I don’t think the issue is our coaching/training at the national level. It’s that most of our Greco guys transitioned to it full time at some point in their late teens or early 20s.

Every cycle everyone on here complains about our coaches or training, as if there is some little thing we need to fix to compete with the rest of the world.

The fact is our wrestling system is built around folk style, then freestyle and then Greco gets the crumbs. As long as that’s the case we’ll get a Hancock here or there, but most of our team will reflect the system em we have. It is what it is.

all true...

the only thing i will add is that the athletes that (for the most part) that focus on greco do it for a reason... which makes them odd balls... which typically comes with  it's on set of issues... which does not always help with the mentality it takes to succeed at the absolute highest levels of this sport... 

many times those athletes do not respond well to a a typical american wrestling coach...

 

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2 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Oh, so it was a "poor decision" to go to Sweden to learn greco from guys who only trained greco and to be mentored by a world medalist for an entire year?  Not to mention chase around gorgeous, very willing Nordic beauties at night while my ribs healed?  Gotcha, chief.  If only I'd had that sage advice in my youth I could have avoided such a horrid experience...

i wish a fraction of my bad decisions in my youth were as "bad" as yours...

 

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My opinion on how to fix Greco. Bring back Ivan and Momir and let them do whatever they want. Lindland was a great wrestler but he's out of his depth here. If Harry Lester was available I'd include him with Ivan and Momir as a way to recruit kids earlier. There are a ton of resources but USAW and coach Woogie won't use them. Barely a decade ago we won a world championship as a team for Greco. 

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