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Discussion thread for 57kg (m), 57kg (w), and 86kg (m)

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4 hours ago, lost said:

Any replays available?  Not gonna get up at 5 AM to try and watch

The Olympic Channel does show each session twice. The first showing starts at 4:15 ET and they replay it immediately after (I think around 9 or 10 ET start time). Same thing in the evening.

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1 hour ago, smitty11 said:

Do all wrestlers need to make weight both days?  What is the weigh in before the bronze and gold matches.  If Uguev has to make wt again and wrestle right away Kumar wins that match.  Uguev looks exhausted every match and Kumar is full energy.

I would assume they have to make weight both days but the medal round isn't until the evening of day 2 so plenty of time to recover.

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26 minutes ago, GockeS said:

russia: cheats for years etc etc, 

IOC: you can't use your name... still allows russian olympic committee

normal person: test positive for covid, no symptoms, no problems

IOC: you can't compete 

They got it right on the second scenario, but missed the mark by a mile on the first.

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43 minutes ago, GockeS said:

russia: cheats for years etc etc, 

IOC: you can't use your name... still allows russian olympic committee

normal person: test positive for covid, no symptoms, no problems

IOC: you can't compete 

It’s not about the health of the athlete who tests positive.

 

And do you really want to see an Olympics without Russia? The medals would not be respected like those won in 84. China and US Track athletes also have organized doping programs. The hope is just that the cheaters eventually get caught. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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9 hours ago, Drew87 said:

My…god…

That is unreal.  That list is one of the longest tables I’ve ever seen on a wikipedia page, for anything.

Anybody watched the movie Icarus? There is a great little bit at the end about a UCLA doc (i believe) who started doing similar testing on US olympics samples from the 80’s, he was “politely informed” that he should  reconsider that course of action.

So, question for discussion: objectively, what percentage of this year’s US wrestling team do you think has ever used gear? What about the entire wrestling field?

For example, that Ukrainian who took Bronze in Tamyra’s weight class, doesn’t exactly look like she’s NOT on stuff.  

I don’t personally have a problem with it, bc I assume just about everyone is on it, those who get caught just have bad suppliers.  I think testing is good bc it forces athletes to dope in moderation, so they don’t totally blow out their hormonal centers.

Yeah, I felt pretty gross after reading that page. It started out kinda funny: the guy who got disqualified for drinking two beers, before and during an endurance race...

I don't want to believe that everyone is doping. I'd honestly rather believe that Dake has figured out how to reverse aging than believe that everyone is cheating! To clarify, my intention here is a slight on MY OWN idealism, and NOT to imply that our star is doping. His description could be described as dopey, which my idealism might also be. I really don't want to speculate about our guys cheating, and I hope my imperfect joke doesn't do that.  

That said, I'm sure there are wrestlers are doping, that more have used than we'll ever know, and I won't be shocked if/when we find out who has. I've heard that NCAA guys have used in the off season to reach new levels, then cleaned up for the season to avoid getting caught. It seems like a high-risk/low-reward strategy, but I've never competed anywhere near their level, so I won't pretend to understand. 

 

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7 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I hate seeing Helen lose on two shot clock points. It’s debatable if the second one was warranted too. Kawai did hold better position, but she didn’t really do enough to deserve that win being handed to her IMO

The host country of World or Olympic competition is ALWAYS the beneficiary of subjective scoring where subjectivity plays into scoring. Helen's Japanese opponent had to be scored against via technical means for a chance to win. It simply didn't happen for her. And it doesn't matter what sport; remember boxing travesty in 88 with Roy Jones losing to the Korean (who'd been knocked down twice).

Edited by fullnelson

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4 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

And do you really want to see an Olympics without Russia? The medals would not be respected like those won in 84. China and US Track athletes also have organized doping programs. The hope is just that the cheaters eventually get caught. 

I think the sanctions on Russia are complex, and we've ended up with injustice across all of sport after treating it as only complicated. Complex, in this rhetoric, is a scenario where there is no singular right answer. Complicated, on the other hand, is something that can be solved pretty well once it's sorted out. 

What we've ended up with is a Russian team competing pretty well at the Olympics, while the country denies all culpability for the egregious actions in Sochi, and instead they're playing the victim. This is a superficial and useless sanction - no real consequence is realized, no real accountability, and zero contrition. 

Maybe time will reveal that this cleans up the sport; that the Russians will stop being among the most frequent offenders. I still won't be impressed by how this has been handled. 

If there were contrition, I'd think differently. In the meantime, I kinda wish the "ROC" were replaced by the Sochi logo, and they competed under "WDC" as their acronym for, "We Definitely Cheated". 

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4 hours ago, Drew87 said:

I had been led to believe that discussing “the girls’ style” was beneath you

I've seen LJB call it the "women's" style, and he's described it as something he fully appreciates.

It's an objective moniker that I don't see as dismissive. Sure, men's and women's freestyle have the same rules, but the styles within those rules are just different. 

Thankfully, there's a lot less blatant misogyny on the forum this Games. I like to believe that it's because the level of athleticism and technical prowess has gotten better in the young sport of women's wrestling. 

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1 hour ago, denger said:

Yeah, I felt pretty gross after reading that page. It started out kinda funny: the guy who got disqualified for drinking two beers, before and during an endurance race...

I don't want to believe that everyone is doping. I'd honestly rather believe that Dake has figured out how to reverse aging than believe that everyone is cheating! To clarify, my intention here is a slight on MY OWN idealism, and NOT to imply that our star is doping. His description could be described as dopey, which my idealism might also be. I really don't want to speculate about our guys cheating, and I hope my imperfect joke doesn't do that.  

That said, I'm sure there are wrestlers are doping, that more have used than we'll ever know, and I won't be shocked if/when we find out who has. I've heard that NCAA guys have used in the off season to reach new levels, then cleaned up for the season to avoid getting caught. It seems like a high-risk/low-reward strategy, but I've never competed anywhere near their level, so I won't pretend to understand. 

 

This might not even be true so take it with a grain of salt. 

My understanding is overdeveloped trap muscles are a hallmark feature of PED use. Something about that region of the body really reacts to performance enhancing substances. Some of the wrestlers at Tokyo have bulging trap muscles. 

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11 minutes ago, HawkY said:

This might not even be true so take it with a grain of salt. 

My understanding is overdeveloped trap muscles are a hallmark feature of PED use. Something about that region of the body really reacts to performance enhancing substances. Some of the wrestlers at Tokyo have bulging trap muscles. 

Plus 1

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

It’s not about the health of the athlete who tests positive.

 

And do you really want to see an Olympics without Russia? The medals would not be respected like those won in 84. China and US Track athletes also have organized doping programs. The hope is just that the cheaters eventually get caught. 

get caught and have nothing happen to them? 

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30 minutes ago, GockeS said:

get caught and have nothing happen to them? 

Yeah they should be like the US and really bring down the hammer, like that time when Fix was suspended for part of the NCAA season.

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31 minutes ago, GockeS said:

get caught and have nothing happen to them? 

Ban the athletes who were caught cheating for life.  Fine the Russian Olympic Committee a significant amount of money.  Bar Russia from hosting the summer or winter olympics for a certain period of time. Do not ban the entire country from competing, since that will punish every athlete at the event (even the non Russians). 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Ban the athletes who were caught cheating for life.  Fine the Russian Olympic Committee a significant amount of money.  Bar Russia from hosting the summer or winter olympics for a certain period of time. Do not ban the entire country from competing, since that will punish every athlete at the event (even the non Russians). 

if only

that would be a good start 

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2 hours ago, denger said:

I've seen LJB call it the "women's" style, and he's described it as something he fully appreciates.

It's an objective moniker that I don't see as dismissive. Sure, men's and women's freestyle have the same rules, but the styles within those rules are just different. 

Thankfully, there's a lot less blatant misogyny on the forum this Games. I like to believe that it's because the level of athleticism and technical prowess has gotten better in the young sport of women's wrestling. 

I guess the 100 meters is the women's style of running, too.

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12 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I guess the 100 meters is the women's style of running, too.

....yeah, unfortunately I caught up on the other thread - I had decided to stop looking at that yesterday and didn't realize that little catfight was still on. 

Still, I don't think LJB is disparaging women, or even disparaging freestyle. Rather, he's disparaging people who want to bicker with him. 

Hopefully that thread loses steam at 10pm EDT. 

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21 minutes ago, denger said:

....yeah, unfortunately I caught up on the other thread - I had decided to stop looking at that yesterday and didn't realize that little catfight was still on. 

Still, I don't think LJB is disparaging women, or even disparaging freestyle. Rather, he's disparaging people who want to bicker with him. 

Hopefully that thread loses steam at 10pm EDT. 

quit giving away all my secrets...

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