Jump to content
Housebuye

Freestyle Rules are Excellent

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Shiraz123 said:

I read (don't watch the sport) that they have overtime in Judo and it just leads to nothing happening during most of the match as most guys just stall to overtime. Fine with criteria personally. 

They did eliminate a takedown scoring option (can’t recall what it was now since my kids have been away from Judo for awhile) after the last cycle in hopes of emphasizing players going after the ippon throws more.  I think that type of throw is considered a no score now where they continue on the mat or maybe even returned to the feet.  I figured the Judo federation did this to create more highlight moments the average viewer would like.   However, from what I’ve watched of Olympic judo so far (still catching up) the lack of that a print option has made many of the players overly cautious and thus even less throws are happening.  Sure the other takedown throw wasn’t as entertaining, but it at least caused action and put points on the board which the average fan could understand.  

Edited by MadMardigain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having some boring matches doesn’t mean the rules are bad! There are boring games of every sport on Earth. In aggregate, these are the best rules we have had in my lifetime by leaps and bounds. We have chased the dragon of forcing action before and we ended up with years and years of gimmicky crap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Housebuye said:

I’m sorry but Smith was wrong most of the time on scoring when he questioned officials. He is a great coach, but he is a terrible ref. I’m not a rules expert and I was correcting him constantly. 
  
As someone else pointed out, I think culturally we complain about reffing a lot. It’s the same in MMA, the MLB, etc. 

I agree, most of what he called questionable calls were because he wasn’t paying attention 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The passivity clock is just a free point that everyone seems to be fine giving up. I no increased urgency when a wrestler was on the clock. 

This was my first extended dive into freestyle. I understand it is different than folk so I don't try to compare the two. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time I watch a freestyle match, it just makes me wish more and more folk style would adopt a similar step-out rule to avoid the edge of the mat stalling calls. I think freestyle has it right for the most part. Of course there are some subjective calls (like passivity), but that’s life in competitive sports with refs. The product on the mat this Olympics was excellent, as OP noted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JeanGuy said:

The passivity clock is just a free point that everyone seems to be fine giving up. I no increased urgency when a wrestler was on the clock. 

This was my first extended dive into freestyle. I understand it is different than folk so I don't try to compare the two. 

I agree that it doesn't create action in the 30 seconds, but I think it often encourages wrestlers to open up a little once the scales are tipped. The first year it was implemented, 2012ish, we saw it create urgency within the 30seconds, which resulted in failed attempts. The strategy almost immediately shifted to ignore the clock. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, goheels1812 said:

Every time I watch a freestyle match, it just makes me wish more and more folk style would adopt a similar step-out rule to avoid the edge of the mat stalling calls. I think freestyle has it right for the most part. Of course there are some subjective calls (like passivity), but that’s life in competitive sports with refs. The product on the mat this Olympics was excellent, as OP noted. 

I think I'd be a fan of a step out rule. It'd be a little annoying at first, but at least we'd develop applicable mat awareness. However, I also appreciate the NCAA extended circle rules that keep folk style wrestlers in danger outside of the boundary, essentially eliminating the stall on the edge. I don't know - can see pros to both. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LJB said:

that is on the athletes...

So nearly every other match they put wrestler A on the shot clock in the first period. Then wrestler B in the second, or not at all.  Yeah right, that's on the wrestlers.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folkstyle has made serious improvements recently, but after watching how well this olympics went, really have to wonder how much we’re leaving on the table in having the lions share of our wrestling go towards an unrelated third style with 50-70% carryover.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Drew87 said:

Folkstyle has made serious improvements recently, but after watching how well this olympics went, really have to wonder how much we’re leaving on the table in having the lions share of our wrestling go towards an unrelated third style with 50-70% carryover.

Given our success in Freestyle this year, it's hard to make the case that our system isn't working.

I waver on this subject regularly. I think folk style is more accessible as a scholastic sport because all body types have advantages in a system that values control and dominance. Freestyle promotes more raw athleticism, and I'm not sure if the majority of youngsters would be able to use their not-so-athletic bodies and enjoy the same success. At elite levels, that's mostly moot. I have not been on the disparage Zain team, but I think he's a fair example of a really good kid, hardworking guy - really everything you'd ever want to have in a wrestling room. He's not a particularly great athlete, but the guy sure can dominate in folk! 

Our boundary rules and ground wrestling are doing nothing for our international success in either Freestyle or Greco. I think that part is crystal clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Sparky said:

So nearly every other match that the wrestlers are not scoring, they put wrestler A on the shot clock in the first period. Then wrestler B in the second, or not at all.  Yeah right, that's on the wrestlers.  

Added an important little piece for you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Obviously there can be some tweaks snd clarifications, but the product being put out is amazing. 
  
The matches were extremely exciting. The fact that so many came down to the last 30 seconds makes it extremely exciting. In most matches the better wrestler won too, which is important. 
  
Not only did we get to see a ton of exciting close matches that were decided last second (Uguev 3 times, Gable, DT, etc), even the Snyder match was super exciting. Being down 6-0 in the last minute, we all still knew Snyder had a good shot at winning. 
  
Good job UWW. 

NOPE 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Sparky said:

So nearly every other match they put wrestler A on the shot clock in the first period. Then wrestler B in the second, or not at all.  Yeah right, that's on the wrestlers.  

Yeah I think those "other matches" are more worthy of complaints than the Maroulis match...

I'm also still not a fan of being able to score 8+ points in 10 seconds with basically one move, but overall I do think it's a pretty good product

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I'm also still not a fan of being able to score 8+ points in 10 seconds with basically one move, but overall I do think it's a pretty good product

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Imagine being a new fan and seeing 8pts of leg laces end what had been an interesting contest. It's hard to understand how a takedown, which might have taken 4:00 of positioning and conditioning to calculate and work out, is worth 2, but grabbing 'em by the ankles and rolling 'em over a few times worth 8.   

I appreciate the dominance of that position, but it's still hard to justify. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, denger said:

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Imagine being a new fan and seeing 8pts of leg laces end what had been an interesting contest. It's hard to understand how a takedown, which might have taken 4:00 of positioning and conditioning to calculate and work out, is worth 2, but grabbing 'em by the ankles and rolling 'em over a few times worth 8.   

I appreciate the dominance of that position, but it's still hard to justify. 

It’s hard to justify when you describe it as “just grab em by the ankles and roll ‘em over a few time”

 

But when you have an accurate understanding of what it takes to get into and dominate that position against an elite athlete….well, little bit different story. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

The passivity clock is just a free point that everyone seems to be fine giving up. I no increased urgency when a wrestler was on the clock. 

This was my first extended dive into freestyle. I understand it is different than folk so I don't try to compare the two. 

this is why i kind of thought about forced par terre, b/c guys aren't really worried about the point.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Did you think the matches were boring?

Yes. 
 

Snyder list and his opponent never shot. 
 

Stevenson won because his opponent was an idiot and didn’t circle away the last ten seconds. 
 

Bottom line only nuts like me (and others on this forum) watch wrestling. Hardly any standard sport fans tuned in. Skateboarding had more viewers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It’s hard to justify when you describe it as “just grab em by the ankles and roll ‘em over a few time”

 

But when you have an accurate understanding of what it takes to get into and dominate that position against an elite athlete….well, little bit different story. 

Like I said, I appreciate the dominance. The context of the initial description is a presumed perspective of someone who has never tried to execute or defend it.

Some of us have accepted that expanding our audience is a futile effort. I think it's worthwhile because without a market there are fewer opportunities for wrestlers.

If the ultimate goal of wrestling is to take an opponent down and pin them flat on their back, then it's hard to justify why tipping them over a little or rolling them around is equivalent to the first half of that equation, the takedown. 

I'm not trying to be a luddite - I just think it's easier to explain back exposure as a singular score; That defending one's back is equally important as defending positions on the feet. An 8pt ankle lace defies this equation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, denger said:

Like I said, I appreciate the dominance. The context of the initial description is a presumed perspective of someone who has never tried to execute or defend it.

Some of us have accepted that expanding our audience is a futile effort. I think it's worthwhile because without a market there are fewer opportunities for wrestlers.

If the ultimate goal of wrestling is to take an opponent down and pin them flat on their back, then it's hard to justify why tipping them over a little or rolling them around is equivalent to the first half of that equation, the takedown. 

I'm not trying to be a luddite - I just think it's easier to explain back exposure as a singular score; That defending one's back is equally important as defending positions on the feet. An 8pt ankle lace defies this equation. 

that is the "ultimate goal" of just one style of wrestling that also rewards running away and not wrestling and laying on top of another person for minutes at a time...

conflating real wrestling with the stall fest is the main issue "fans" have with understanding real wrestling and it's rules...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, LJB said:

that is the "ultimate goal" of just one style of wrestling that also rewards running away and not wrestling and laying on top of another person for minutes at a time...

conflating real wrestling with the stall fest is the main issue "fans" have with understanding real wrestling and it's rules...

Is that not the ultimate goal of both Greco and Freestyle? I get that you're keen on Greco - are you advocating for passivity resulting for par terre? I'm just trying to follow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, denger said:

Is that not the ultimate goal of both Greco and Freestyle? I get that you're keen on Greco - are you advocating for passivity resulting for par terre? I'm just trying to follow. 

you said it is hard to justify exposure and used a pin to make that claim...

i'm just saying that the ultimate goal of any sporting event is to win... 

exposure is a clear path to victory...

the rules are simple and easy to follow...

you want to complicate those rules by using justification from another sport is always going to lead to confusion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, LJB said:

you said it is hard to justify exposure and used a pin to make that claim...

i'm just saying that the ultimate goal of any sporting event is to win... 

exposure is a clear path to victory...

the rules are simple and easy to follow...

you want to complicate those rules by using justification from another sport is always going to lead to confusion...

I'm going to infer that you're reading my understanding as based on Folkstyle - that's fair, it's the sport I know best.

Keeping this on topic, though, isn't the ultimate winning position still a fall in Freestyle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, LJB said:

you want to complicate those rules by using justification from another sport is always going to lead to confusion...

Also, LJB, I made this. I figure someone on here could use it. 

MAKE.AGAIN.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also am not a fan of leg laces … in particular those that DO NOT involve exposure.  The person pivots and turns in an upright sitting position and there is no exposure.  I get that it is showing dominance but the optics suck.  I do wish that there was someway, that was less subjective to reward less the ‘cheap’ exposures and reward more the controlled attempts at pins (which laces are not).  This would be more similar to folkstyle.

Still - in very large part, the rules have worked out quite well.  I’m enjoying freestyle very much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...