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Freestyle Rules are Excellent

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1 minute ago, nom said:

I also am not a fan of leg laces … in particular those that DO NOT involve exposure.  The person pivots and turns in an upright sitting position and there is no exposure.  I get that it is showing dominance but the optics suck.  I do wish that there was someway, that was less subjective to reward less the ‘cheap’ exposures and reward more the controlled attempts at pins (which laces are not).  This would be more similar to folkstyle.

Still - in very large part, the rules have worked out quite well.  I’m enjoying freestyle very much.

A lace when the offensive wrestler elevates and comes to their feet almost always results in exposing the back - rather than hand-to-hand, upright rotation. It's also very unlikely for that to roll up 4 in a row. 

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9 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Yeah I think those "other matches" are more worthy of complaints than the Maroulis match...

I'm also still not a fan of being able to score 8+ points in 10 seconds with basically one move, but overall I do think it's a pretty good product

Chris Ayres agrees

 

But on his other point - was Steveson technically not supposed to do that? (Edit: sorry just saw there was some discussion of that in the finals thread)

Edited by 1032004

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I love the rules right now. Thinking back on how the rules have changed in the past, I remember back in the late 80's you could have continuous leg laces but not gut wrenches, if I remember correctly. I remember at some point in the 90's they changed the rules so that you couldn't get points from continuous leg laces or guts. You had to score another way and then could go back to it. Then they changed it so that you could score continuously with either one. There also used to be the hand to hand rule, where if you went hand to hand when being turned, they only got 1 point. I was disconnected from wrestling for many years and then started following it again during the ball grab years. I was horrified at the rules at the time. As someone who wrestled freestyle for 12 years and enjoyed it more than folkstyle, I didn't even recognize the sport. I love where the rules are now. Maybe some of the resident experts could shed light on why the hand to hand rule was eliminated or why they went back to continuous turns. There are always tweaks to the rules that can be made, but the product now is a good one. 

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The global olympic incentives and power dynamics were very different back then.  The USSR and the US ran the world.  Wrestling was very important to the USSR, so guess what, no criticism of wrestling.  

That has all changed.  That umbrella is gone, hence wresting averaging a new set of rules every 4 or 5 years since the late 90’s. Wrestling was protected for a long time, that has gone away now.  Eyeball numbers run the show.  If your sport doesn’t justify it’s administrative burden to the olympics, it will get cut.  Sh*t is expensive and people aren’t about the good will life anymore unfortunately.

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The rules are excellent how they are.  The only rules I'd change:

1. The tie.  Personally I prefer overtime, but even without it, make the winner in ties be the last point scored irrespective of "point value."  Too many situations where the wresters and coaches don't know who's winning (let alone the audience), and that is never an acceptable.  Never.

2.  The "near takedown" (or "near throw").  That was a dumb addition to an excellent set of rules.  It is way too subjective:  one person's well-defended takedown/throw (0 points) is another person's near takedown/throw (points).  The refs seem reluctant to enforce this rule, which I definitely understand.  Take it off the books.

3.  Develop a hand signal system where the ref has to convey the reason for an award of caution points.  Too often a point mysteriously appears on the board and the wrestlers, coaches and announcers are all looking around confusedly.  Its maddening.  

There are a few other changes I might *prefer* to see different, but I'll bite my tongue on those, as one of ways wrestling has shot itself in the foot in the past few decades is to constantly overhaul the rules, so much so that it is hard to develop and retain a fan base that understands them.  Hopefully we are done with that mistake and will change rules only at the margins, to correct lingering flaws, with no more overhauls.

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1 hour ago, BAC said:

The rules are excellent how they are.  The only rules I'd change:

2.  The "near takedown" (or "near throw").  That was a dumb addition to an excellent set of rules.  It is way too subjective:  one person's well-defended takedown/throw (0 points) is another person's near takedown/throw (points).  The refs seem reluctant to enforce this rule, which I definitely understand.  Take it off the books.

I assume this is in reference to what is often called a correct throw. Nothing significantly new about it. We were calling them 40 years ago.

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It seems like  for a lot of the hand to hand turns, the back is not exposed. I am favoring of bring back the one point for hand to hand turn, but it adds another level of complexity to the rules. 

Right now any turn is 2 points and that is as simple as possible.  Also IIRC there were borderline situations were sometimes it was hard to tell if an elbow hit making it a two point turn

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2 hours ago, BAC said:

The rules are excellent how they are.  The only rules I'd change:

1. The tie.  Personally I prefer overtime, but even without it, make the winner in ties be the last point scored irrespective of "point value."  Too many situations where the wresters and coaches don't know who's winning (let alone the audience), and that is never an acceptable.  Never.

For a while I didn't like criteria but I really appreciate it now. How many tied folkstyle matches have guys on their feet doing nothing for the last 20-30 seconds waiting for overtime? And most of the scoreboards have improved significantly with a prominent visual indicator of who is actually winning. Sometimes that doesn't carry through to the stream but I think it's pretty rare that those on site can't tell who is winning. And it drives a ton of urgency.

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

I assume this is in reference to what is often called a correct throw. Nothing significantly new about it. We were calling them 40 years ago.

Its has existed in varying forms but they made them worth 2 points in 2017.  Failing to execute a throw shouldn't be any points at all, much less the same as a takedown.

That said, I'm mistaken about the near takedown, which happily was abolished a few years ago and I didn't even notice.  So at least that one's gone.

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3 minutes ago, Red95 said:

For a while I didn't like criteria but I really appreciate it now. How many tied folkstyle matches have guys on their feet doing nothing for the last 20-30 seconds waiting for overtime? And most of the scoreboards have improved significantly with a prominent visual indicator of who is actually winning. Sometimes that doesn't carry through to the stream but I think it's pretty rare that those on site can't tell who is winning. And it drives a ton of urgency.

I can appreciate the argument that overtime is not essential (though I personally miss it).  But I believe strongly that if we keep criteria, it should be last score wins, *period*. 

In the OTTs, there were *multiple* examples of wrestlers and their coaching corners who mistakenly thought they had criteria, and lost.  There's examples of the scoring table displaying it incorrectly too, which creates a whole new set of issues about whether to reset the clock when the table corrects the error.  In a high scoring match with lots of turns and cautions, it is incredibly hard to keep track -- especially in the heat of the moment.  It is, by contrast, easy to keep track of who scored last.  Lets also not forget that the argument for having other criteria that overrides last-point-scored is marginal at best.  Why should an exposure be valued more than a takedown  when they are both worth 2 points?  Whatever tiny bit of merit there might be in such an argument is outweighed by the confusion it causes, to both participants and fans.

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2 hours ago, Jim L said:

It seems like  for a lot of the hand to hand turns, the back is not exposed. I am favoring of bring back the one point for hand to hand turn, but it adds another level of complexity to the rules. 

Right now any turn is 2 points and that is as simple as possible.  Also IIRC there were borderline situations were sometimes it was hard to tell if an elbow hit making it a two point turn

I don't like giving points for the kind of turns Sadulaev got. Make it so at least one shoulder blade hits the mat.

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criteria is extremely easy and straightforward to keep up with...

if one of the two coaches in the corner can't keep it straight then that is totally on them...

i legitimately can not remember one instance where i have had trouble remembering who had criteria during a match...

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criteria is extremely easy and straightforward to keep up with...
if one of the two coaches in the corner can't keep it straight then that is totally on them...
i legitimately can not remember one instance where i have had trouble remembering who had criteria during a match...

Matches that get in the 8-8 and above range can start to get dicey. I once watched a 15-15 match intently and couldn’t remember who had the most 4s. It happens.

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On 8/7/2021 at 9:10 AM, Drew87 said:

Scoring is fine, I would really like to see overtime reinstated instead of the last score rule.  It turns the last minute into a playground fight, and refs LOVE getting in the middle. 

No.  Being tied promotes inaction.  Nobody wants to take a risk.  Folkstyle should move to criteria.  Someone always losing promotes guys trying to score.

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On 8/14/2021 at 9:15 AM, JasonBryant said:


Matches that get in the 8-8 and above range can start to get dicey. I once watched a 15-15 match intently and couldn’t remember who had the most 4s. It happens.

as a causal observer, yes...

as a coach, unacceptable...

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By and large, I love the rules as they exist. A few changes I would make (and I have whined about here in the past):

1. A 10 second turn clock that starts once a takedown has been confirmed. If a turn takes place within the 10 seconds, the clock starts over again. If a turn is in progress when the buzzer goes off after 10 seconds, it is awarded, then back it's on your feet you go. A 10 second turn clock is uniform and takes the ref out of the equation. Wrestlers are given one opportunity per match to void the turn clock (a la Steveson) by clearly showing the ref the sign for wrestling from the feet after earning a takedown.

2. After a wrestler receives a warning from two of the three judges, choice of position goes to his/her opponent. 

3. I'd like to see something done about exposure, then takedown that awards a wrestler for more than just exposure. I'm not talking feet to back here, but coming off of a scramble. Thoughts, folks?

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