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denger

Team USA Depth vs The World

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If more than one wrestler could qualify per country for Olympics/Worlds, how would Team USA compete with the likes of Russia, Japan, Iran, etc?

I imagine we'd do well in Men's Freestyle at our presumed deepest weights of 74 and 84, but that could backfire if we faced the depth of other countries.

I suspect our Women's team, which hinted at threatening Japan this year, would have a much harder time if there were two Japanese wrestlers.

Greco...well I doubt anyone wants to talk about our depth there. 

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1 hour ago, denger said:

If more than one wrestler could qualify per country for Olympics/Worlds, how would Team USA compete with the likes of Russia, Japan, Iran, etc?

I imagine we'd do well in Men's Freestyle at our presumed deepest weights of 74 and 84, but that could backfire if we faced the depth of other countries.

I suspect our Women's team, which hinted at threatening Japan this year, would have a much harder time if there were two Japanese wrestlers.

Greco...well I doubt anyone wants to talk about our depth there. 

A guy who would be fifth or sixth on the US ladder at 86kg just took bronze at the Olympics so....

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2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

A guy who would be fifth or sixth on the US ladder at 86kg just took bronze at the Olympics so....

But he would not have taken bronze if there were two Russians, two Americans and two Iranians.

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It would go terribly.  The reason russians are so good is they have to navigate russian nationals first.  We have a few guys, like taylor now and JB a while back who could do it, but it wiuld be a medal lockout for the most part.

It is the equivalent of asking “what if the US could put forth multiple basketball teams?” Well…we would win all the medals no questions asked.

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15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Are we sure he’d still be 5/6 on the ladder?

He would not be, Myles looked excellent, he would be #2 on the ladder.

He has clearly developed a boatload of freestyle savvy, technique and awareness that few americans ever develop.  His future is bright. 

Edited by Drew87

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14 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

He would not be, Myles looked excellent, he would be #2 on the ladder.

He has clearly developed a boatload of freestyle savvy, technique and awareness that few americans ever develop.  His future is bright. 

There aren't a lot of head-head results to look at in the last two years, but Zahid beat Amine 7-1 in June 2021 in Poland. Nickal has a 12-5 win over Zahid from the Olympic team trials. 

I think it's fair to say Amine is lower than #2.  

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At 86kg Iran's number 2 would have definitely medalled if multiple countries were allowed to compete at the Olympics. Kamran Ghasempour is right up there with being as good as Yazdani but has a different style. Has wins over Naifonov and such.

I even think he gives Taylor a better run for his money than Yaz, stylistically speaking. He will rep Iran at the worlds at 86 or 92 depending on what Yazdani decides to do. At the moment Yaz has said he will probably go, but I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a rest and I think he should. Would like to see Ghasempour vs Taylor.

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

I think the results would be basically the same, right? We aren’t as deep as Russia in MFS or Japan in WFS, but we are pretty solid against anyone else.


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I guess the question is, how many countries have a #2 that is likely to make it into a Semi-Final?

The outcomes up to that point would be most disruptive - the chances of a fortunate draw getting someone into a medal match would be limited. The chances of an upset or unfortunate draw keeping a medal contender from a country with depth out of reach of a medal would also go down, so a #2 from Iran could upset Taylor in the Quarters but lose in the Semis. Yazdani could be Gold with the other Iranian Bronze (just using examples listed above). 

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43 minutes ago, Drew87 said:

It would go terribly.  The reason russians are so good is they have to navigate russian nationals first.  We have a few guys, like taylor now and JB a while back who could do it, but it wiuld be a medal lockout for the most part.

It is the equivalent of asking “what if the US could put forth multiple basketball teams?” Well…we would win all the medals no questions asked.

I was going to disagree, but I think I've come around for parallel reasons.

I was thinking of races where 2 or 3 from the same country medal in a given event. In their prelims, it's unlikely that one of the top 3 will displace the others. Our advancement through brackets, rather than heats or pools, make it far more likely for this to happen. 

Then there's our random draw - travel to the other side of the planet to wrestle your training partner...

I dunno, I'd still like to see the best of the best in the Olympics/Worlds, but that's probably not best for our sport. 

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14 minutes ago, denger said:

I was going to disagree, but I think I've come around for parallel reasons.

I was thinking of races where 2 or 3 from the same country medal in a given event. In their prelims, it's unlikely that one of the top 3 will displace the others. Our advancement through brackets, rather than heats or pools, make it far more likely for this to happen. 

Then there's our random draw - travel to the other side of the planet to wrestle your training partner...

I dunno, I'd still like to see the best of the best in the Olympics/Worlds, but that's probably not best for our sport. 

I agree, I think it would be really cool to see.  Fortunately/unfortunately, the US is one of the few countries that flings the floodgates open for international competition.  Wrestling medals don’t mean anything to the US as a country, and as such we are happy to let the chips fall where they may in the name of sport.  Wrestling medals, or lack of same, precipitate serious knock-on effects for multiple families (athlete, coaches, ministers of sport) in many other countries, and they are not quite so keen on leaving things to chance.  They will vet their guys and keep them hidden as much as possible.

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

JO would win Bronze, at least, and Zain would go 0-1 as usual.......Actually Zain would not even make the team

On what planet do you figure that jo would take bronze in what might be the toughest weight class ever assembled? He’s been on the international scene for a decade during which time nobody has come close to a medal for the USA, and this is the first time he ever made the team…. No shame in any of this the weight class is just beyond ridiculous.

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He would not be, Myles looked excellent, he would be #2 on the ladder.
He has clearly developed a boatload of freestyle savvy, technique and awareness that few americans ever develop.  His future is bright. 

Myles might very well get teched by Bo Nickal, too.

He might win 2 out of 10, maybe. He’s maybe fourth in the US, right now, if he competed for the US again.


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3 hours ago, Le duke said:


Myles might very well get teched by Bo Nickal, too.

He might win 2 out of 10, maybe. He’s maybe fourth in the US, right now, if he competed for the US again.


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Am I crazy for thinking there's a solid chance he wouldn't be in the top 5? I think most of us would take all 3 of Taylor, Nickal, and Valencia over Amine. 

 

Then at least 2 of these guys are probably better: Dean, Dieringer (who wins in the Michigan room when Dieringer is healthy?), Martin, Downey, A. Brooks, Hall (undefeated against Amine)

 

Maybe Amine's style is better suited for international competition than it is domestically, but I don't think he'd even place top 5 at U.S. Trials. 

 

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I don't understand the lack of confidence in Amine. I understand he didn't have the most grueling path to Olympic Bronze, but he still beat some really tough guys to medal. He has also faired pretty well at all of his international tournaments as well. I think he would have an excellent chance of being #2 on our ladder. None of those other guys have any international freestyle accolades that match Amine's, so are you saying just the eye test tells you this? I think Amine looked more than capable of beating any of the guys you have mentioned above. 

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17 hours ago, Crash said:

JO would win Bronze, at least, and Zain would go 0-1 as usual.......Actually Zain would not even make the team

This theory will get tested this fall. JO, Yianni, McKenna, Nick Lee and Zain have little separation between them. 

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I don't understand the lack of confidence in Amine. I understand he didn't have the most grueling path to Olympic Bronze, but he still beat some really tough guys to medal. He has also faired pretty well at all of his international tournaments as well. I think he would have an excellent chance of being #2 on our ladder. None of those other guys have any international freestyle accolades that match Amine's, so are you saying just the eye test tells you this? I think Amine looked more than capable of beating any of the guys you have mentioned above. 

Bo Nickal would eat him alive.

Zahid has already beaten him, soundly.

I’d go with Ringer, too.

Hell, he lost to Trent Hidlay.

He probably isn’t the favorite against Brooks in a FS match (who I’d take against Hidlay 9 out of 10 times).


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5 minutes ago, Le duke said:


Bo Nickal would eat him alive.

Zahid has already beaten him, soundly.

I’d go with Ringer, too.

Hell, he lost to Trent Hidlay.

He probably isn’t the favorite against Brooks in a FS match (who I’d take against Hidlay 9 out of 10 times).


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Bo Nickal - probably the favorite

Zahid hasn't wrestled him in awhile, and Amine clearly has taken steps. Even if he beat Amine again, its not a forgone conclusion right now

Ringer is going backwards, not forwards. Amine is the favorite over him easily right now.

Cool, a lot of guys have suspect losses that probably will never be duplicated. When did that match happen? I would bet quite a bit of money on Amine cruising in that match right now.

Brooks based on what? Im not as impressed with Brooks as others are. He is dominating a very very weak weight in college, and there have been multiple cadet and junior world medals from guys that couldn't sniff a senior level world team. I don't care about his cadet and junior results. 

At the end of the day, all I am saying is Amine has done very well internationally, and is an Olympic Bronze medalist. You guys are acting like he is trash.

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16 hours ago, denger said:

There aren't a lot of head-head results to look at in the last two years, but Zahid beat Amine 7-1 in June 2021 in Poland. Nickal has a 12-5 win over Zahid from the Olympic team trials. 

I think it's fair to say Amine is lower than #2.  

Not to mention that Trent Hidlay handled him at the clubs cup in December.

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19 hours ago, Drew87 said:

He would not be, Myles looked excellent, he would be #2 on the ladder.

He has clearly developed a boatload of freestyle savvy, technique and awareness that few americans ever develop.  His future is bright. 

I'm not sure he could beat Mark Hall, let alone Nickal, Zahid, or Aaron Brooks.  He's never beaten Hall in the past.  He lost to Trent Hidlay in the last year, as others have pointed out.

He's not trash.  But he got an Olympic bronze medal when he is not a top-10 86kg in the world because USA/Russia/Iran could only send one guy.  If the top-16 guys in the world at 86kg were allowed to enter regardless of country, Myles is not on the podium.  

The animosity that some on this board have for him is that he used a loophole to benefit himself, become an Olympian, and win an Olympic bronze.  I don't blame him for doing it, but the hate comes with the territory.    

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3 hours ago, snapspinscore said:

Bo Nickal - probably the favorite

Zahid hasn't wrestled him in awhile, and Amine clearly has taken steps. Even if he beat Amine again, its not a forgone conclusion right now

Cool, a lot of guys have suspect losses that probably will never be duplicated. When did that match happen? I would bet quite a bit of money on Amine cruising in that match right now.

At the end of the day, all I am saying is Amine has done very well internationally, and is an Olympic Bronze medalist. You guys are acting like he is trash.

As mentioned above, Valencia beat Amine in Poland on June 8, 2021.

Nobody is saying he's trash, just that he wouldn't qualify for the Olympics as an American. 

Personally, I think it's great that he found a way to get there and medal! If he hadn't qualified for one of 16 Olympic spots, then someone he beats would have. His qualification made the field better, not worse. 

Sure, there's also animosity because our #3 beat him recently, and neither our #2 nor #3 got a chance at an Olympic medal this year, while the guy from Dearborn, Michigan, who trains in Ann Arbor, did. Again, I don't share the animosity, but it's easy for me to understand. 

Edited by denger
*typo

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19 hours ago, Uwwdoc said:

At 86kg Iran's number 2 would have definitely medalled if multiple countries were allowed to compete at the Olympics. Kamran Ghasempour is right up there with being as good as Yazdani but has a different style. Has wins over Naifonov and such.

I even think he gives Taylor a better run for his money than Yaz, stylistically speaking. He will rep Iran at the worlds at 86 or 92 depending on what Yazdani decides to do. At the moment Yaz has said he will probably go, but I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a rest and I think he should. Would like to see Ghasempour vs Taylor.

lmfao. 

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