Jump to content
Jimmy Cinnabon

Will Spencer Lee ever win Olympic gold?

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Berge- serious concussions. Still allowed in the lineup.

Kerkvliet- allegedly had one practice in three months after staph and blood poisoning which forced him on bed rest and caused him to lose thirty pounds of muscle. Allowed to wrestle in a d1 dual and an extra match, just to help the team in Big 10 and nationals.  Don't forget that he also  has an unrepaired torn ACL. 

Taylor- knocked unconscious at worlds.  Seriously concussed.  Coaches let him continue to wrestle.

Correction: Kerkvliet did not wreatle a D1 dual right off the bat. It was Maryland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AHamilton said:

You clearly have not listened to the interviews done with Lee.  You also, probably don't understand that doing a second ACL repair on the same knee is a significantly longer rehab.  You just like to hate on the Brands... that is ok.

Meanwhile, Cael did let a clearly compromised  Berge wrestle two matches in 2020.  Taylor was also allowed to continue in 2018 Worlds after being concussed.  I don't remember Will Smith starring in a movie called "ACL."

What is the difference between Kerk wrestling on one ACL and Lee wrestling the season on one ACL?  Oh... different singlet colors.

The difference between Kerk and Lee is one had his Olympic dream crushed by his coaches and the other did not.

One had an ACL injury that was operated on and had resolved itself as well as it could, so he hit the mat for NCAAs and OTTs, with no indication any doctors recommended otherwise.  The other had an ACL injury that impacted his wrestling, then a one on the other knee, which together so affected his body that after NCAAs that he was too physically chewed up to chase the Olympic dream.

No, he Lee didn't do those things at gunpoint.  He did what he always did:  He followed his coach's recommendations, apparently believing his coach had his best interests at heart.  And doing so got his coach his title, but killed his dream.

It is unfortunate that you see things only in things of a PSU-Iowa rivalry, because it impacts your ability to think straight.  Had Cael wrecked Kerk's or Berge's Olympic dreams many of us would be hammering him, but he didn't.  Only Brands did that.

I realize you're a Hawk fan and have no regard for the goals of their athletes when they're not wearing black and gold, but just once you really ought to step back, put your team loyalty aside, and consider the athlete's best interests too.  And while you're at it, look at things from the standpoint of your country, and how USA Wrestling would want to see colleges treat their future international stars.

 

Edited by BAC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, BAC said:

The difference between Kerk and Lee is one had his Olympic dream crushed by his coaches and the other did not.

One had an ACL injury that was operated on and had resolved itself as well as it could, so he hit the mat for NCAAs and OTTs.  The other had an ACL injury that impacted his wrestling, then a one on the other knee, which together so affected his body that after NCAAs that he was too physically chewed up to chase the Olympic dream.

No, he Lee didn't do those things at gunpoint.  He did what he always did:  He followed his coach's recommendations, apparently believing his coach had his best interests at heart.  And doing so got his coach his title, but killed his dream.

It is unfortunate that you see things only in things of a PSU-Iowa rivalry, because it impacts your ability to think straight.  Had Cael wrecked Kerk's or Berge's Olympic dreams many of us would be hammering him, but he didn't.  Only Brands did that.

I realize you're a Hawk fan and have no regard for the goal of their athletes when they're not wearing black and gold, but just once you really ought to step back, put your team loyalty aside, and consider the athlete's best interests too.  And while you're at it, look at things from the standpoint of your country, and how USA Wrestling would want to see colleges treat their future international stars.

 

I do not think Kerk has an ACL in one of his knees.  I am pretty sure he doesn't.  If he does, when was it repaired?

Comments?

Because it is pretty clear to me that Cael is letting one of his athletes wrestle without an ACL.  The horror!

When did Brands crush Lee's Olympic dreams?  When he let him wrestle with one ACL, just as Cael is doing with Kerk?

Edited by AHamilton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I do not think Kerk has an ACL in one of his knees.  I am pretty sure he doesn't.  If he does, when was it repaired?

As I understand it, he injured it, it was operated on, he reinjured it, and it was decided over two years ago that surgery would not be beneficial.  That was all before setting foot on a college mat, much less transferring to PSU from tOSU.  The video you posted was from before he even graduated high school.

Post-surgery, Simley heavyweight Greg Kerkvliet ready to return to the mat — and dominate – The Guillotine

InterMat Wrestling - Nation's No. 1 recruit Kerkvliet says he will redshirt at Ohio State (intermatwrestle.com)

He clearly had an injury he was dealing with at PSU that kept him out most of the year, but I don't even know it was knee related.  I actually thought it was shoulder related.  In any case, I don't recall reading anything that would suggest that the injury was of a nature that competing now would hurt his freestyle future later.  If I missed something which says otherwise, feel free to share.

Edited by BAC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BAC said:

As I understand it, he injured it, it was operated on, he reinjured it, and it was decided over two years ago that surgery would not be beneficial.  That was all before setting foot on a college mat, much less transferring to PSU.

Post-surgery, Simley heavyweight Greg Kerkvliet ready to return to the mat — and dominate – The Guillotine

InterMat Wrestling - Nation's No. 1 recruit Kerkvliet says he will redshirt at Ohio State (intermatwrestle.com)

He clearly had an injury he was dealing with at PSU that kept him out most of the year, but I don't even know it was knee related.  I actually thought it was shoulder related.  In any case, I don't recall reading anything that would suggest that the injury was of a nature that competing now would hurt his freestyle future later.  If I missed something which says otherwise, feel free to share.

Kerkvliet is wrestling without an ACL.  Spencer was wrestling without an ACL and was managing fine.

What is the difference?  Why is Spencer's case any different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BAC said:

As I understand it, he injured it, it was operated on, he reinjured it, and it was decided over two years ago that surgery would not be beneficial.  That was all before setting foot on a college mat, much less transferring to PSU.

Post-surgery, Simley heavyweight Greg Kerkvliet ready to return to the mat — and dominate – The Guillotine

InterMat Wrestling - Nation's No. 1 recruit Kerkvliet says he will redshirt at Ohio State (intermatwrestle.com)

He clearly had an injury he was dealing with at PSU that kept him out most of the year, but I don't even know it was knee related.  I actually thought it was shoulder related.  In any case, I don't recall reading anything that would suggest that the injury was of a nature that competing now would hurt his freestyle future later.  If I missed something which says otherwise, feel free to share.

It was staph that spread to his blood this year was why he was out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

It was staph that spread to his blood this year was why he was out

This is what I have heard.  Was it a post-surgery staph from cleaning up a knee or something? Or something he picked up in the wrestling room?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, BAC said:

The difference between Kerk and Lee is one had his Olympic dream crushed by his coaches and the other did not.

One had an ACL injury that was operated on and had resolved itself as well as it could, so he hit the mat for NCAAs and OTTs, with no indication any doctors recommended otherwise.  The other had an ACL injury that impacted his wrestling, then a one on the other knee, which together so affected his body that after NCAAs that he was too physically chewed up to chase the Olympic dream.

No, he Lee didn't do those things at gunpoint.  He did what he always did:  He followed his coach's recommendations, apparently believing his coach had his best interests at heart.  And doing so got his coach his title, but killed his dream.

It is unfortunate that you see things only in things of a PSU-Iowa rivalry, because it impacts your ability to think straight.  Had Cael wrecked Kerk's or Berge's Olympic dreams many of us would be hammering him, but he didn't.  Only Brands did that.

I realize you're a Hawk fan and have no regard for the goal of their athletes when they're not wearing black and gold, but just once you really ought to step back, put your team loyalty aside, and consider the athlete's best interests too.  And while you're at it, look at things from the standpoint of your country, and how USA Wrestling would want to see colleges treat their future international stars.

 

You're arguing results over process.  The results have nothing to do with whatever you feel you know about each coaching staff's decision-making; that's a process thing.  In your framing of this situation, both coaching staff's are using the same process to make the same decision; it just so happened that Kerk didn't get further injured and Lee did.  You'e also misremembering how good Lee looked up until his most recent injury at B1Gs.  He, with his one ACL, looked better than he ever had.

Yet another counter example is when Cael "let" a clearly compromised Nolf wrestle the NCAA tournament his junior year.  I say "let" facetiously, obviously.

Anyway, the only time I get queasy about coaches letting wrestlers compete is when it's head injuries.  Berge most recently.  Iowa had Gambrall several years ago.  I think it was a heavyweight from Columbia a few years back who was clearly concussed in the match.  Other than that, I'm fine with whatever decision the wrestler reaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Kerkvliet is wrestling without an ACL.  Spencer was wrestling without an ACL and was managing fine.

What is the difference?  Why is Spencer's case any different?

You are trotting out old high school injuries of athletes whose medical decisions were made long before their arrival, and who competed in OTTs just fine, totally unaffected by competing in NCAAs.  It isn't about past ACL injuries, its about the present.  The issue is whether you are going to let a wrestler whose performance is (by his own admission) already hampered by an injury continue to compete in lieu of surgery, then compete some more after a new injury, ruining his body before he can realize his Olympic dream.

Edited by BAC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, BAC said:

You are trotting out old high school injuries of athletes whose medical decisions were made long before their arrival, and who competed in OTTs just fine, totally unaffected by competing in NCAAs.  It isn't about past ACL injuries, its about the present.  The issue is whether you are going to let a wrestler whose performance is (by his own admission) already hampered by an injury continue to compete in lieu of surgery, then compete some more after a new injury, ruining his body before he can realize his Olympic dream.

Kerk has a present ACL injury. He is wrestling with only one ACL.  

So is your point that Spencer should not wrestle in college, period? Or that he should not have wrestled after he tore the other ACL?  Because, there is no way he was wrestling at OTT even if he skipped NCAAs.  Heck, NCAAs might have made it easier for him to decide not to do OTT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're arguing results over process.  The results have nothing to do with whatever you feel you know about each coaching staff's decision-making; that's a process thing.  In your framing of this situation, both coaching staff's are using the same process to make the same decision; it just so happened that Kerk didn't get further injured and Lee did.  You'e also misremembering how good Lee looked up until his most recent injury at B1Gs.  He, with his one ACL, looked better than he ever had.

Yet another counter example is when Cael "let" a clearly compromised Nolf wrestle the NCAA tournament his junior year.  I say "let" facetiously, obviously.

Anyway, the only time I get queasy about coaches letting wrestlers compete is when it's head injuries.  Berge most recently.  Iowa had Gambrall several years ago.  I think it was a heavyweight from Columbia a few years back who was clearly concussed in the match.  Other than that, I'm fine with whatever decision the wrestler reaches.

See above post.  I don't think its a fair comparison.  Kerk's injury was two schools and many doctors ago, long before he got to PSU.  There was never any suggestion that his ACL was compromising his wrestling or that it needed surgery or that competing now was going to jeopardize his ability to contend for the Olympics. Its a bad analogy.

Yes Spencer looked good.  But a spectator its hard to tell how much Spencer's performance was affected because a Spencer at 80% is still going to dominate.  What was eye opening to me is the anguished look on Spencer's face after NCAAs, and he himself talking about how badly his wrestling was impacted.  And then reading how devastated he was when, inevitably, his lifelong dream of Olympic glory was lost due to those ACLs.  This was just so preventable. I'm not a fly on the wall at every meeting between wrestler, coach and doctor, and I acknowledge there's likely more to the story than any of us know, but I just can't shake the bitter taste it leaves in my mouth.  A coach with a potential Olympic gold medalist on his roster, who the coach knows wants that more than anything, has a special duty to not jeopardize that dream.  

 

 

Edited by BAC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, BAC said:

Probably a while before that happens.  Really hope he can get his knees fixed up.  I really think he can win gold on the world/Olympic level, which is why it so bitter to see parochial coaches sideline if not sacrifice his potential in favor of lesser goals.  

The Brands’ goal is to keep their job, and winning a team title solidified they keep their jobs for a long time. The decision is a no brainer for them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, BAC said:

The difference between Kerk and Lee is one had his Olympic dream crushed by his coaches and the other did not.

One had an ACL injury that was operated on and had resolved itself as well as it could, so he hit the mat for NCAAs and OTTs, with no indication any doctors recommended otherwise.  The other had an ACL injury that impacted his wrestling, then a one on the other knee, which together so affected his body that after NCAAs that he was too physically chewed up to chase the Olympic dream.

No, he Lee didn't do those things at gunpoint.  He did what he always did:  He followed his coach's recommendations, apparently believing his coach had his best interests at heart.  And doing so got his coach his title, but killed his dream.

It is unfortunate that you see things only in things of a PSU-Iowa rivalry, because it impacts your ability to think straight.  Had Cael wrecked Kerk's or Berge's Olympic dreams many of us would be hammering him, but he didn't.  Only Brands did that.

I realize you're a Hawk fan and have no regard for the goals of their athletes when they're not wearing black and gold, but just once you really ought to step back, put your team loyalty aside, and consider the athlete's best interests too.  And while you're at it, look at things from the standpoint of your country, and how USA Wrestling would want to see colleges treat their future international stars.

 

You keep saying Lee's dream of olympic glory was crushed.  It hasn't been crushed, just delayed.  It's not like Tokyo was his only hope for olympic glory.  He will win his 4th title in March, likely a 2nd team title as well.  Then I suspect he will get the knees taken care of surgically and be all in for 2024.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Bozak2018 said:

You keep saying Lee's dream of olympic glory was crushed.  It hasn't been crushed, just delayed.  It's not like Tokyo was his only hope for olympic glory.  He will win his 4th title in March, likely a 2nd team title as well.  Then I suspect he will get the knees taken care of surgically and be all in for 2024.

He ll have to go through nick suriano and pat glory to get his 4th, absolutely no guarantee he does that, the team race should be really close, especially if gable doesn’t come back, Penn state would have one of the favorites at heavyweight...and I think the point many are trying to make in this post and the other 20 about Spencer’s knees, is that not repairing the knees leads to permanent issues like arthritis..I wouldn’t say his dream is crushed but it’s serious blow and hopefully he’s able to get back to 100 percent 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

He ll have to go through nick suriano and pat glory to get his 4th, absolutely no guarantee he does that, the team race should be really close, especially if gable doesn’t come back, Penn state would have one of the favorites at heavyweight...and I think the point many are trying to make in this post and the other 20 about Spencer’s knees, is that not repairing the knees leads to permanent issues like arthritis..I wouldn’t say his dream is crushed but it’s serious blow and hopefully he’s able to get back to 100 percent 

And concussions work out just fine for Berge and Taylor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2021 at 7:23 PM, BAC said:

The difference between Kerk and Lee is one had his Olympic dream crushed by his coaches and the other did not.

One had an ACL injury that was operated on and had resolved itself as well as it could, so he hit the mat for NCAAs and OTTs, with no indication any doctors recommended otherwise.  The other had an ACL injury that impacted his wrestling, then a one on the other knee, which together so affected his body that after NCAAs that he was too physically chewed up to chase the Olympic dream.

No, he Lee didn't do those things at gunpoint.  He did what he always did:  He followed his coach's recommendations, apparently believing his coach had his best interests at heart.  And doing so got his coach his title, but killed his dream.

It is unfortunate that you see things only in things of a PSU-Iowa rivalry, because it impacts your ability to think straight.  Had Cael wrecked Kerk's or Berge's Olympic dreams many of us would be hammering him, but he didn't.  Only Brands did that.

I realize you're a Hawk fan and have no regard for the goals of their athletes when they're not wearing black and gold, but just once you really ought to step back, put your team loyalty aside, and consider the athlete's best interests too.  And while you're at it, look at things from the standpoint of your country, and how USA Wrestling would want to see colleges treat their future international stars.

 

You have absolutely no idea what went into Lee's decision to wrestle after his ACL surgery and who made that decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

He ll have to go through nick suriano and pat glory to get his 4th, absolutely no guarantee he does that, the team race should be really close, especially if gable doesn’t come back, Penn state would have one of the favorites at heavyweight...and I think the point many are trying to make in this post and the other 20 about Spencer’s knees, is that not repairing the knees leads to permanent issues like arthritis..I wouldn’t say his dream is crushed but it’s serious blow and hopefully he’s able to get back to 100 percent 

I'll have to actually see Suriano in somebody's line up at 125 before I believe it.  A cut to 57 kg for a tournament here and there is one thing, but holding 125 all season is another.  I think he'll be at 133.  I think Vito and Glory are the big hurdles at 125, and Vito could end up at 133 as well.  

Given Kerk's history, maybe he doesn't make it through the season injury free.  Not to mention he'll have to Cassioppi, Parris and Schultz again.  If he isn't 100% he loses to all three of those guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/9/2021 at 2:50 PM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

How old was Yazdani and Sadulaev when they won their first golds?

There’s of course lots of examples including Smith. But how old was Kenny Monday when he made his first world team? He won one NCAA title in 1984 but only hit the world stage in 1988 when he took our Schultz for the first time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spencer was not going to beat Uguev, Ravi, Gilman or Mr singlet grab out of Kazakhstan.  Iowa does not offer or promote mistake-free wrestling, they just try to pressure and overwhelm.  That would have gone very poorly in this year’s 57 pool.  

Unpopular opinion, but Soencer in my book has made the decision to sacrifice a lot of his international career for ncaa titles. 

Post-surgery knees do not do quite so hot with leg laces, and those are really coming back in style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Drew87 said:

Spencer was not going to beat Uguev, Ravi, Gilman or Mr singlet grab out of Kazakhstan.  Iowa does not offer or promote mistake-free wrestling, they just try to pressure and overwhelm.  That would have gone very poorly in this year’s 57 pool.  

If healthy, he would have handled all of those guys.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...