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1 hour ago, ThorsteinV said:

Suppose we quadrupled the Living the Dream Medal payout for Greco Roman wrestling, how much would that improve medal output? 

It wouldn't raise the total at all considering he would not make the team. 

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On 8/9/2021 at 7:02 PM, ThorsteinV said:

Suppose we quadrupled the Living the Dream Medal payout for Greco Roman wrestling, how much would that improve medal output? 

Interesting question.  I think rather than hoping for one wrestler to win a medal, though, that the theoretical money would be better spent funding multiple wrestlers to focus on training without having to concerned about working to support their passion.

To build the program we need more quality talent.   Right now, some of that talent turns to freestyle as there are more funding opportunities down that road.  This means that the wrestlers pursuing a Greco career have to search internationally for the competition that will really help them grow than they might if we had better numbers domestically.   This is more challenging when you've got limited funding.

In reality, it might be difficult to rationalize someone sponsoring American Greco with our current level of international success, but that's what I believe it will take to get things on track. 

I think that USA Wrestling misses opportunities to help the Greco athletes market themselves.   Many are relatively unknown since they typically didn't go the NCAA path, but there have been individuals along the way who have personalities or calling cards that people would recognize.   Assisting the individuals with this ultimately could draw interest in and benefit the program. 

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You know it wasn’t in the not too distant past that we used to win some Greco medals and a title or two. So what’s changed? Is it that foreign programs are improving and we are staying the same, or are we just losing ground somehow? I don’t know what the answer is, but I think that it would be a good time to pull everything apart and re-examine what, why and how we are doing it. There has to be answer in there. Sure maybe some personal moves need to be made, maybe something else, but I think some of these smaller nations who occasionally have their squad or an individual or two do well at the Olympics or Worlds, then I think that we should be able to as well. 

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We have already shown what the recipe for success is in America when it comes to greco.  Enough so that we won a world title with it.  ALL of our medalists in the past 20 years have shared 1 of 3 traits, and none of more than one:  1 - Successful completed NCAA career.  2 - Ivan Ivanov was their sole developmental coach and they spent most/all of their training time with him.  3 - Dremiel Byers.

 

Would we be able to combine those things again?  For the right money, yes.  Easily.

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I agree... First, our Greco guys up through high school split time with folkstyle (folkstyle on the feet translates better to freestyle, but we all know this), so we fall behind quickly and lack the speed and flow of transitions and feel compared to the rest of the world. Also in line with our late start to full time Greco, it causes our wrestlers to suck in par terre. We also suck in par terre in freestyle for the most part.  There is a recipe for winning a Greco medal at the World level.  Fight like hell, brawl, in their face, wear guys down... (Hall, Warren, Lindland etc.). But the rest of the world has upped their game with regards to conditioning and the will and ability to brawl... Maybe some of you heard the story of the Cuban wrestler after the tournament telling Lindland it isn't boxing, but wrestling.  Lindland got two silver Medals this way, but guys are prepared for it now, and with the current rules they know if they hold position they will get a go on top and can turn us like tops.  

We also have the blind leading the blind. Team USA should be beating the rest of the world by beating them, and not beating them by wrestling like an American. Americans suck in par terre. Why? Because our best wrestlers get a false sense of their skills, or a false sense of security day in and day out in their training. They train with other guys who generally suck in par terre.  USA wrestlers rarely, if ever, have to defend or work for a turn with partners that have world class skills on top and bottom. We don’t have the coaches and partners to learn and develop those skills. People will talk about how tough Ellis Coleman is on top...They always fail to clarify, tough when he is on top of an American. Dennis Hall who won a World Championship, an Olympic Silver and a World Bronze, would bring foreigners over to train with. He would focus on being in the positions where he was getting his ass kicked. Ivan Ivanov was one of these wrestlers that came to the U.S. and worked with Hall. Armenian World Champ Aghasi Manukyan was also brought over by Hall. For those that don't know, when Manukyan won his World Championship, he broke the ribs of all five of the opponents he wrestled with his revers lift... We don't train to beat the world. We train as if we are satisfied beating Americans, and if we beat Americans we think we are doing great. USA Wrestling (the organization) has been moronic in its quest for success in Greco.  Lindland does know what it takes for an American brought up on folkstyle to win world medals, but USA Wrestling actually offered the job to Terry Brands... WTF? Terry is a great coach, but he isn't a Greco coach. USA Wrestling felt too many wrestlers with Greco skills matriculate (my inner Hank Stramm talking) to freestyle after college careers. Why shouldn't they? Folkstyle prepares them better for freestyle (maybe) but folkstyle certainly hampers one's Greco development. They felt a coach with college ties might be able to recruit more post college wrestlers to Greco.  That wasn't going to cause any great change. Most of those wrestlers have created an even greater uphill climb by wrestling folkstyle in college for 5 years... Who in the past 30 years won a World Medal after wrestling college folkstyle for four or five years? Rulon? The problem won't get fixed until they invest in more foreign coaches, and recently retired foreign stud Greco wrestlers to come over and wrestle with and teach our guys. 

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i watched Coach Mohhamed show a gut at a schoolboy practice about 3 years ago...

the subtleties he was showing mostly went over my head and i am sure it did to most of the wrestlers as well, but...

even i could see very easily why we are behind...

it is a different level of technique that i can only assume kids in greco countries are being taught when they are 10... taught the right way from the beginning because those kids are not concerned about competition until it starts to matter...

whereas our kids are being taught **** that will beat other 10 year old kids at northern regionals...

then they have to relearn all that weak stuff once they think they are ready for world competition...

 

i also watched Coach Ahad run a practice about 7 years ago... it was crazy refreshing and changed my views about all sorts of things...

it is not that we do not have access to great coaches... 

it is a cultural thing... and until our culture changes to accept that destroying your body in the hopes of getting books paid for at some XYZ college is not the only path forward we will continue to struggle at the best style...

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11 hours ago, bman546 said:

..... Who in the past 30 years won a World Medal after wrestling college folkstyle for four or five years? Rulon? ...

I looked the world medalists it up and I think all these guys wrestled 4 years in NCAAs: Vering, Durlacher, Koslowski, Rodney Smith, Lindland,

Joe Warren, Ruiz, Paulson, Ghaffiri  competed in college but not sure if they did so for four years

I know Hall and Lowney competed at DI but then dropped out to focus on Greco 

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4 hours ago, Jim L said:

I looked the world medalists it up and I think all these guys wrestled 4 years in NCAAs: Vering, Durlacher, Koslowski, Rodney Smith, Lindland,

Joe Warren, Ruiz, Paulson, Ghaffiri  competed in college but not sure if they did so for four years

I know Hall and Lowney competed at DI but then dropped out to focus on Greco 

You forgot Adam Coon. Lowney wrestled at MN 4 years but did not compete in what would have been his last year of eligibility. Hall had one redshirt freshmen year at WI). But the point of my post was, in the past 30 years of wrestling, the USA has only had 17 individuals win medals.  And 6 of those competed in the upper two weight classes (which doesn't really feature leg attacks).  The USA will not be able to compete with the rest of the World (the years where we have multiple medalists or win the World Championships are anomalies). because culturally we do not assimilate to Greco being our one style as an athlete until much later in life. And the years of multiple medalists and Team World Championships are over, unless the needed change occurs. The rest of the world has upped their game with regards to conditioning, and being able to transition from technique to a brawl utilizing technique if necessary.   

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Bumping this one with hopes that we can avoid getting it locked up. 

I think the idea of encouraging NCAA All Americans to wrestle Greco is a great idea, but this is just one lever that should be pulled.  Expanding and encouraging earlier development is another major contributor, but neither is going to get us there by itself. 

A larger talent pool will not only be helpful for increasing the competition in trials but also gives more domestic training partners.  Getting them to the trials is just the first step, though, and honestly won't matter if they don't continue training and competing after that.   Winning world medals isn't going to happen for someone who tries Greco and manages to to qualify by beating several US wrestlers with a short period of training. 

Without finding a way to increase funding for Greco wrestlers, very few are going to stick with it.  

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