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Kerk back home to Minnesota?

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1 hour ago, Idaho said:

 

"Yeah but they only produce silver medalists over 200 lbs.""  9 years ago...different staff (they).... different workout partners. Doesn't change the fact that the current "they" has produced a silver and Minnesota has produced gold. But it was a good and true historical reference. He should be a head coach someday. 

 

Different staff?  Wasn't Cael there?  Not to mention the guy himself is now on the NLWC staff! (and of course Cael himself is also a gold medalist)

Thanks Le Duke for confirming that Varner was part of NLWC when he won gold, I wasn't sure.

But man this is a terrible argument.  The NLWC literally has 4 of the last 5 (Gable being the only exception) Olympic Gold medalists at 85 kg or higher (Cael, Varner, Snyder, Taylor) and the argument is that they didn't "produce" Snyder even though he's there now?  Really?

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48 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Different staff?  Wasn't Cael there?  Not to mention the guy himself is now on the NLWC staff! (and of course Cael himself is also a gold medalist)

Thanks Le Duke for confirming that Varner was part of NLWC when he won gold, I wasn't sure.

But man this is a terrible argument.  The NLWC literally has 4 of the last 5 (Gable being the only exception) Olympic Gold medalists at 85 kg or higher (Cael, Varner, Snyder, Taylor) and the argument is that they didn't "produce" Snyder even though he's there now?  Really?

2012 - Sanderson, Sanderson, Cunningham, Fanthorpe - 2021 - Varner, McNight, Thompson -At last check Cael isn't a NLWC coach technically - although I am sure he is in some unofficial capacity and spends a good amount of time in there.   Thompson is the guy for heavyweights. But hey if you want to give Cael credit for Varner's gold and then Snyder's silver I'm okay with that. You do realize you can't count Varner himself  as coaching staff in 2012 because...he .... was.... wrestling. This is a terrible argument since you changed the argument...I never said 85kg and up - I have specifically stated Heavyweight and on one post said over 200 lbs to include 97kg (Snyder). If you were to lower the weight (as you did) to 85kg then  there would certainly be less of an argument - however you have gone back quite a few years and Cael's 2011 run at NLWC was 5th place and if I remember correctly his gold medal in 2004 was at Ames and Sunkist.  In the end NLWC is the best club out there...but at heavyweight, seems like Minnesota with their coaching has done a pretty good job the last few years. 

 

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Funny. Could have sworn Cael, Cody and Casey were the corner men at the OTTs and Olympics for the three NLWC American medalists. And that Cael was his corner man when Varner won.


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36 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Funny. Could have sworn Cael, Cody and Casey were the corner men at the OTTs and Olympics for the three NLWC American medalists. And that Cael was his corner man when Varner won.


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Could have sworn you didn't read my post.... 

but hey if you want to be right then I'm good with that - you are right - Varner had the same coaches coach him in 2012 that Snyder did in 2021. Sounds good - You win.... Now that you have won... We can all agree that Snyder was a silver medalist and Gable gold. We can also agree that Snyder did not improve on his placement from last time nor did he improve on his gold medal earlier in his career despite having the same coaches as varner. You won .  Good job. 

Edited by Idaho

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49 minutes ago, Idaho said:

2012 - Sanderson, Sanderson, Cunningham, Fanthorpe - 2021 - Varner, McNight, Thompson -At last check Cael isn't a NLWC coach technically - although I am sure he is in some unofficial capacity and spends a good amount of time in there.   Thompson is the guy for heavyweights. But hey if you want to give Cael credit for Varner's gold and then Snyder's silver I'm okay with that. You do realize you can't count Varner himself  as coaching staff in 2012 because...he .... was.... wrestling. This is a terrible argument since you changed the argument...I never said 85kg and up - I have specifically stated Heavyweight and on one post said over 200 lbs to include 97kg (Snyder). If you were to lower the weight (as you did) to 85kg then  there would certainly be less of an argument - however you have gone back quite a few years and Cael's 2011 run at NLWC was 5th place and if I remember correctly his gold medal in 2004 was at Ames and Sunkist.  In the end NLWC is the best club out there...but at heavyweight, seems like Minnesota with their coaching has done a pretty good job the last few years. 

 

I mean I’m not sure what the argument is.

Yes I lowered it to 85 kg because I think the “over 200 lbs” caveat was only added to exclude Taylor.

But you make it sound like “producing Olympic Golds” is easy.  I do think it’s fair to say Cael produced Varner, and himself, and of course Taylor if we’re allowed to count him.  

And I agree, Cael shouldn’t get much credit for Snyder’s silver.  I give most of it to the draw he got which was a cakewalk to the finals.  But I digress.  Sure, his gold was “produced” by tOSU, but in terms of the OP supposedly training with Snyder at NLWC was a big reason for Kerk transferring to PSU.

Gable is literally the only other heavier weight Olympic Gold medalist other than those guys in the past like 20 years.  I’m sure Eggum is a good coach but Gable likely had a shot at gold wherever he was training.  And of course you know who else Cael produced?  I believe the only American to beat Gable somewhat recently...

Edited by 1032004

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I mean I’m not sure what the argument is.

Yes I lowered it to 85 kg because I think the “over 200 lbs” caveat was only added to exclude Taylor.

But you make it sound like “producing Olympic Golds” is easy.  I do think it’s fair to say Cael produced Varner, and himself, and of course Taylor if we’re allowed to count him.  

And I agree, Cael shouldn’t get much credit for Snyder’s silver.  I give most of it to the draw he got which was a cakewalk to the finals.  But I digress.  Sure, his gold was “produced” by tOSU, but in terms of the OP supposedly training with Snyder at NLWC was a big reason for Kerk transferring to PSU.

Gable is literally the only other heavier weight Olympic Gold medalist other than those guys in the past like 20 years.  I’m sure Eggum is a good coach but Gable likely had a shot at gold wherever he was training.  And of course you know who else Cael produced?  I believe the only American to beat Gable somewhat recently...

I stated 200 + to include one weight lower than 125kg to include other "big men" in the conversation, not to exclude Taylor (who IMO is not considered "big man" in terms of that style/strategy).  My personal opinion is the NLWC is the best club out there overall. I agree - Gillman and Snyder went there specifically to get better - to get a gold and to reclaim a gold. It didn't work out. The original "argument" is based on if Kerk would go to Minnesota based on the success of Gable and the success of Minnesota over the recent years at heavyweight specifically, but of course threads always go down an unmaintained county road through the forest.  . 

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Just now, Idaho said:

I stated 200 + to include one weight lower than 125kg to include other "big men" in the conversation, not to exclude Taylor (who IMO is not considered "big man" in terms of that style/strategy).  My personal opinion is the NLWC is the best club out there overall. I agree - Gillman and Snyder went there specifically to get better - to get a gold and to reclaim a gold. It didn't work out. The original "argument" is based on if Kerk would go to Minnesota based on the success of Gable and the success of Minnesota over the recent years at heavyweight specifically, but of course threads always go down an unmaintained county road through the forest.  . 

Nothing against Minnesota/Eggum, but what specifically did they do to get Gable gold though?   Not motivate him enough so he lost twice to the same guy?  I mean that’s basically the reason they’re giving for him winning gold.  If anything some could maybe argue that he could have both Olympic gold and 2 NCAA titles somewhere else.   

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11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Nothing against Minnesota/Eggum, but what specifically did they do to get Gable gold though?   Not motivate him enough so he lost twice to the same guy?  I mean that’s basically the reason they’re giving for him winning gold.  If anything some could maybe argue that he could have both Olympic gold and 2 NCAA titles somewhere else.   

I am not sure how many people outside of the his training partners and coaches can answer that question specifically until some interviews come out... as fans we saw him going from losing to the same guy twice (all be it in a different style) to defeating a 3x world champion within 2 years. Would Cassar beat Gable last year at the 2021 NCAA or the trials? Not based on the improvement we saw.  I'm guessing his training and coaches had something to do with that, but I have not seen or heard any interviews since that have talked about his training or Gable about his coaches.   I'm not a huge Minny fan, but I do like them. I guess the same questions you raise could be asked of PSU as well. As a PSU fan, do you think that  David Taylor would  have won 2 NCAA titles and a gold somewhere else-?  As a side note, I would be interested to  know after the fact what Snyder, Gillman and Cael's thoughts are on why they did not make the jump they needed to at NLWC to win gold. Not a knock, just interested to know what they would have done different or what their answer is to that question. Maybe they already have talked about that. 

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PSU fans act like Cassar rolled Gable up like Nolf over Jake Short.  Truth is, he beat him by the narrowest of margins twice (would have gotten his ass kicked with freestyle rule set).  Cassar also took a loss to Derek White, Gable hasn’t lost to someone like White since he turned 14.

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1 hour ago, WresFan89 said:

PSU fans act like Cassar rolled Gable up like Nolf over Jake Short.  Truth is, he beat him by the narrowest of margins twice (would have gotten his ass kicked with freestyle rule set).  Cassar also took a loss to Derek White, Gable hasn’t lost to someone like White since he turned 14.

I’m not a PSU fan. But it just seems like a weird argument to say Kerk should go to Minny, when he’s currently at the one place that had someone beat Gable.

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1 hour ago, Idaho said:

I am not sure how many people outside of the his training partners and coaches can answer that question specifically until some interviews come out... as fans we saw him going from losing to the same guy twice (all be it in a different style) to defeating a 3x world champion within 2 years. Would Cassar beat Gable last year at the 2021 NCAA or the trials? Not based on the improvement we saw.  I'm guessing his training and coaches had something to do with that, but I have not seen or heard any interviews since that have talked about his training or Gable about his coaches.   I'm not a huge Minny fan, but I do like them. I guess the same questions you raise could be asked of PSU as well. As a PSU fan, do you think that  David Taylor would  have won 2 NCAA titles and a gold somewhere else-?  As a side note, I would be interested to  know after the fact what Snyder, Gillman and Cael's thoughts are on why they did not make the jump they needed to at NLWC to win gold. Not a knock, just interested to know what they would have done different or what their answer is to that question. Maybe they already have talked about that. 

No clue what Taylor would have done elsewhere.

Gilman and Snyder were longshots for Gold.  I think it could be argued that Snyder didn’t seem all that much different than prior to the NLWC, but I saw many people say they thought Gilman looked the best he’s ever looked.

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7 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I’m not a PSU fan. But it just seems like a weird argument to say Kerk should go to Minny, when he’s currently at the one place that had someone beat Gable.

Gable is 2 years younger now than what Cassar was when he won his title.

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2 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Gable is 21, Cassar won his Ncaa title when he was 22 

Check birthdates genius.  Did Cassar win his title prior to March 9, 2019?  If not, he was 23.  Gable had certainly yet to turn 19 by then.

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20 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

No clue what Taylor would have done elsewhere.

Gilman and Snyder were longshots for Gold.  I think it could be argued that Snyder didn’t seem all that much different than prior to the NLWC, but I saw many people say they thought Gilman looked the best he’s ever looked.

Taylor would’ve won multiple ncaa titles regardless of where he went , but bulking up to 86 kg and being successful is something I’m not sure he could’ve accomplished just anywhere ....Gilman definitely looked much better since the change, he went back to his high volume attack style that got him to the 2017 world finals, after that he seemed to stagnate and spend most of his time in an underhook looking for push outs and was having a tough time scoring,  he definitely opened up a lot more, and synder looked better but he was also on a very weak side of the bracket so until we see him against Shariov or the Iranian idk if we can fairly judge how much he’s improved or hasn’t 

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1 minute ago, WresFan89 said:

Check birthdates genius.  Did Cassar win his title prior to March 9, 2019?  If not, he was 23.  Gable had certainly yet to turn 19 by then.

What does any of this matter anyway? If a 26 yr old Jaydin Eierman beats a 18 year old Shane van ness in the ncaa finals this year are people going to talk about the age difference for years too? 
  
Cassar was not that old when he won his title...Fix, Eierman, Wentzel, Kememer were all ncaa finalists last year that were older than Cassar when he won, Bonocorsi and Dellavecchia may be older too I can’t find their age ....Eierman is only 2 months younger than Cassar and still wrestling.
 

I can’t think of another match up where people bring up the age difference other than this one 

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27 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

What does any of this matter anyway? If a 26 yr old Jaydin Eierman beats a 18 year old Shane van ness in the ncaa finals this year are people going to talk about the age difference for years too? 
  
Cassar was not that old when he won his title...Fix, Eierman, Wentzel, Kememer were all ncaa finalists last year that were older than Cassar when he won, Bonocorsi and Dellavecchia may be older too I can’t find their age ....Eierman is only 2 months younger than Cassar and still wrestling.
 

I can’t think of another match up where people bring up the age difference other than this one 

Do you think 18 year old Gable is the same as 21 year old Gable?  Truth is that Cassar reaches his peak at 23 by beating an 18 year old Gable Steveson, Gable is 21 and has an Olympic gold and most wrestling experts think he hasn’t reached his peak.

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Current Gable would likely tech Cassar in freestyle.

 

Cool.

 

But he still lost two non-controversial folk style wrestling matches to him.

 

Let’s post some more irrelevant theoretical matches:

 

-I’d bet current David Taylor would tech Bubba Jenkins.

 

Your turn!

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

Cool.

 

But he still lost two non-controversial folk style wrestling matches to him.

 

Let’s post some more irrelevant theoretical matches:

 

-I’d bet current David Taylor would tech Bubba Jenkins.

 

Your turn!

 

 

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Bubba would knock Taylor the FO in an MMA fight!

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2 hours ago, WresFan89 said:

Do you think 18 year old Gable is the same as 21 year old Gable?  Truth is that Cassar reaches his peak at 23 by beating an 18 year old Gable Steveson, Gable is 21 and has an Olympic gold and most wrestling experts think he hasn’t reached his peak.

18 year old Gable was still predicted by many including himself to be the first 4x heavyweight NCAA champ, and he was probably favored in both of those matches, .  I think it certainly speaks to Cael's coaching abilities that Cassar was able to beat him not once but twice.

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