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irani

My idea for rule change

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9 hours ago, DanGerMan said:

The scoreboards would need a tweak to allow for the half point.  But more concerning would be how the ref would signal a half point. I have experimented with sticking up half of one finger and it just does not work.

They could amputate all UWW referees pinky finger.  Problem solved.

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I am of the opinion that the 2:4 takedown:Feet to back ratio is one of the drawbacks of the current rules.  I preferred 1:3, but moving the takedown to 2 solved a lot of other ratio problems such as making a takedown worth the same as a non controlled exposure (equalizing the risk:reward) and double a step out (plus a little extra because of criteria).  So I can live with it.  

3:4 or 3:5 points for takedown:FTB is inadequate and that concession is just one too large to massage the value of a step out.

Feet to back is one of the key components that makes freestyle awesome.

Edited by JHRoseWrestling
Typo

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Use a folkstyle mat.

2016ncaafinals350.jpg

The big circle is for the normal area of activity. When a situation occurs with little action or scoring, stop the match and restart in the small circle. Same match rules apply except wrestlers are limited to the small circle until someone scores. Wrestlers should have more control over scoring points quickly rather than based on referee's discretion (e.g. activity clock or passivity/par terre).

I don't take credit for the photo.

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With criteria in favor of a TD, it takes 3 step outs to beat 1 TD. I think this is the right ratio.

Decreasing a step out to .5 would mean it takes 5 step outs to beat 1 TD. I think this is too much. It would also lead to more step outs (wrestlers would give them up more since it would cost them less).

increasing a TD to 3 points would mean it takes 4 step outs to win, but I think this is too much. This would allow wrestlers with a lead to pack it in earlier when they have a lead. Plus, as others have noted, it would have a ripple effect of necessitating the rethinking of other scoring. Plus, I like yelling "TWOOOOOO!!" Combined, this is a very large solution to fix a very small problem (the rare occasion when 3 step outs beating 1 TD feels wrong). Had Taylor not scored that late TD, Yazdani's gold medal would have felt satisfying to me.

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10 hours ago, Return of Aztec said:
. Had Taylor not scored that late TD, Yazdani's gold medal would have felt satisfying to me.

Can you elaborate on this point?  This is the heart of the matter for me.

As a Yazdani fan, if had won by three step outs, and given out one TD, that win would have felt very empty unsatisfying to me

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12 hours ago, irani said:

Can you elaborate on this point?  This is the heart of the matter for me.

As a Yazdani fan, if had won by three step outs, and given out one TD, that win would have felt very empty unsatisfying to me

It's not a perfect analogy, but I view it similar to American football where 3 field goals beats 1 touchdown. The goal is to score touchdowns, not field goals. It's rare that a team will win when they score only field goals, but it happens occasionally. 

While earning a step out point demonstrates less control or dominance than a takedown, they are earned points. To earn a step out point, you have to control your opponent. For the most part in that match, I felt like Yazdani controlled the match. Overall, I felt like he controlled the ties, controlled the pace, and frustrated Taylor. Though he didn't get a takedown, the way I see it a lot had to go right for him to be in a position to win with only step outs.

As a wrestling fan, I want to see takedowns, exposures, and pins just like as a football fan I want to see touchdowns, but it's extraordinarily competitive at the top of every sport and athletes and teams have to score when and where they can. Sometimes that's only step outs and field goals. And if their defense is good enough, sometimes that's enough to win. 

If it was very common for people to win with just step outs, it would get tiring and it might feel like guys were trying to "cheat the system" to win with just step outs. I didn't feel like Yazdani was doing that. I felt like he was trying to control the match and score when he could. I thought it was a smart strategy for him to employ against Taylor. For much of the match, he succeeded. But ultimately not enough of it. 

I know I don't watch as much wrestling as a lot of folks here, but I guess I don't see it happen enough that I think it's a problem to win with just step outs even when the opponent scores a takedown. It's just something that happens sometimes.  

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5 hours ago, Return of Aztec said:

It's not a perfect analogy, but I view it similar to American football where 3 field goals beats 1 touchdown. The goal is to score touchdowns, not field goals. It's rare that a team will win when they score only field goals, but it happens occasionally. 

While earning a step out point demonstrates less control or dominance than a takedown, they are earned points. To earn a step out point, you have to control your opponent. For the most part in that match, I felt like Yazdani controlled the match. Overall, I felt like he controlled the ties, controlled the pace, and frustrated Taylor. Though he didn't get a takedown, the way I see it a lot had to go right for him to be in a position to win with only step outs.

As a wrestling fan, I want to see takedowns, exposures, and pins just like as a football fan I want to see touchdowns, but it's extraordinarily competitive at the top of every sport and athletes and teams have to score when and where they can. Sometimes that's only step outs and field goals. And if their defense is good enough, sometimes that's enough to win. 

If it was very common for people to win with just step outs, it would get tiring and it might feel like guys were trying to "cheat the system" to win with just step outs. I didn't feel like Yazdani was doing that. I felt like he was trying to control the match and score when he could. I thought it was a smart strategy for him to employ against Taylor. For much of the match, he succeeded. But ultimately not enough of it. 

I know I don't watch as much wrestling as a lot of folks here, but I guess I don't see it happen enough that I think it's a problem to win with just step outs even when the opponent scores a takedown. It's just something that happens sometimes.  

I actually think your analogy is a good one.

I would not be very satisficed if my football team won the super bowl 15-14.

But I guess that by itself is not enough for a rule change

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Its an interesting idea, and I'm sympathetic to the idea that one point "feels" like a lot, relative to two for a takedown.  But I would oppose it for a few reasons.

1.  I'm not convinced that a change will, as Irani says, "entice wrestlers to score more with actual wrestling."  Yes it will increase the value of the takedown relative to the pushout, but it will also result in more end-of-match mat-fleeing, as wrestlers who are up by 3-4 points won't care if they give up a few half-points in the last 30 seconds.  One advantage to giving a full point for a push-out is it forces the winning wrestler to continue to go hard at the end if the match is within a few points.  The DT-Yaz match doesn't really make the contrary point, as its hard to make the case that the match lacked excitement as a result of the push-out rule.  Instead of Taylor's late takedown, it would've been Yaz needing a late takedown; hard to say one is more exciting than the either, as either way one guy is protecting a lead and the other is looking to score.

2.  As others have said, the notion that you need three step outs, not two, to overcome a takedown, makes it feel a bit more equitable.

3.  The introduction of fractions and decimals would be a first for wrestling, and is a bit fan-unfriendly.  It would tend to inject complexity where simplicity is usually better, in addition to potentially needing to change scoring equipment worldwide which doesn't currently allow for use of decimals.

4.  One of the biggest mistakes that international wrestling has made in the last three decades that I've followed the sport is that they make rule changes too readily and frequently.  That's a surefire way to lose fans, as they don't recognize the sport anymore, and also an easy way to lose wrestlers, who frustratingly need to modify their skill set after every new major set of rule changes.  There needs to be a real flaw in the rules to warrant a change, and I don't see it.

 

 

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Nice summary of counter points @BAC.

Regarding the last one … part of the impression of frequent rule changes was the relative speed in which the last big set of changes was launched following the Olympics debacle (threat of removal).  I’m pretty glad that one happened!  ;-)  Brought in the current rule set (largely).  Thank goodness.

I’m of the impression things have settled down since then.  Perhaps some tweaks.  Fair?  Or am I forgetting some key changes in recent years?

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14 hours ago, nom said:

Nice summary of counter points @BAC.

Regarding the last one … part of the impression of frequent rule changes was the relative speed in which the last big set of changes was launched following the Olympics debacle (threat of removal).  I’m pretty glad that one happened!  ;-)  Brought in the current rule set (largely).  Thank goodness.

I’m of the impression things have settled down since then.  Perhaps some tweaks.  Fair?  Or am I forgetting some key changes in recent years?

I've opposed literally every set of rule changes from the past couple decades for that last reason, with the exception of the overhaul of a few years ago.  Even then I didn't support it some much because I liked the change (although I did), but because wrestling had been dropped and we needed to make a real showing that we were doing something to try to liven things up and counter the reasons given for dropping the sport.  There have been a couple changes since then, but nothing huge.  I'm happy with the current rules.  There are a couple modest fan-friendly tweaks I'd support, but that's about it. 

Edited by BAC

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18 minutes ago, Silhouette94 said:

Nice idea

 

But hear me out.  How about .5 points for a takedown, and 2 points for a pushout?

Personally, I LOVE the idea

or course, other points and the tech limit would have to be adjusted as well

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