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Jordan Burroughs

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Forget benching 225 for reps; look at this video of JB (around 175 lbs) doing full snatch, clean and jerks with 225 for reps like he's flipping burgers:

(start at 1:09). He does do one-arm pullups with 50-lb DBs strapped on and rips phone books like they're newspapers (I can't find the videos for those). One of my college room mates was a D1 linebacker (went on to play in the CFL) and I sometimes lifted with the football team off-season. I can tell you that adjusted for his small size, from what I've seen, JB would hang in the NFL combine.

 

That youtube link isn't working for me, but I'd love to see it.

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Jordan Burroughs is a phenomenal athlete, but I think you are underestimating the number of people in the general population that can do the things he does in that video (with the exception of the wrestling of course).

 

I'm actually not. I wasn't pointing to the whole video as a phenomenal display of anything. I was pointing to specifically the section where he was cleaning and jerking 225 with ease at 175 lbs (hence my comment on where to start watching), which is a lot more impressive than benching that weight, which is what acadia was referring to as a test of strength/power at a recent NFL combine (14 reps). Nothing more. The point, of course, being that I'm sure JB compares favorably in strength and power adjusted for his small size. I remember watching Penn State backup 118 lber John Bove, who wrestled 114.5 in freestyle that summer, put up 225 6x at a summer wrestling camp, and he was not even in the same league as JB in terms of power. Anyway, I think the bench press is a poor test of functional strength or power.

 

And also, I highly doubt Burroughs was doing one arm pullups of any sort, let alone with extra weight. A true one arm pullup (not the crap where you grab your own wrist but are holding the bar with one hand) is extremely uncommon among elite athletes. Usually only very lightweight guys can do it. Here is a very impressive example of a guy doing some.

 

You can doubt it but that doesn't make it any less true. I believe it was Flo that had a video of JB doing one-arm pull-ups (legitimate ones) before the Olympics, and I've seen it with my own two eyes, but I can't find it as I noted. I know what a one-arm pull-up is, by the way, no need to patronize. Three guys on my college wrestling team were able to do it when we were pulling weight, and I was one of them.

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Interesting conversation.

 

So which athletes do the Navy Seals like best? Water polo isn't it? And that's not even on Acadia's list (nor is swimming). Seals also like wrestlers. They are apparently measuring other things including mental.

 

Someone mentioned that great "combine" numbers isn't necessarily a predictor of success in football. Those measurements would even be less a predictor in wrestling, IMO.

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My guess it that the posters who say NFL players are superior athletes compared to wrestlers are correct. But I have a few points.

 

Do we have any NFL-combine stats for elite wrestlers. My guess is that we do not. But I would think that the top wrestlers could bench 225 a bunch of times. How many times can Tony Nelson bench 225? Does anybody know? Less sure about their foot-speed and vertical leaps, which seem pretty irrelevant to wrestling.

 

One comparison we do have is with wrestlers in the upper weights (mostly 197 and heavyweight). We have Andrew Capellatano (sp?) who was a good, not great, D1 football prospect. We assumed that he'd be a great wrestler and off-the-charts athletically among wrestlers. It turns out that neither is true.

 

Second, from watching wrestling, it seems that heavyweights are by far the least athletic wrestlers. Yet the the very best heavyweights have been athletic enough to play in the NFL, some, like Carlton Haselrig, without have ever played football. Of course, these guys are linemen. Then we have a guy like Jimmy Lawson, who was good, not great, low-level D1 football player. As a wrestler, he is also good, but not great. But is he a superior athlete compared to other D1 wrestlers? It seems not. There are also a bunch of NFL linemen who wrestled in high school. Most were good, some probably great-- but that's high school.

 

Thus, I think if someone put in the effort, it might be possible to compare NFL linemen to college heavyweights in terms of athleticism. There is at least some overlap as some guys do both sports. My guess is that the very best heavyweights would come out OK, not ahead, but not that far behind.

 

My third point is that pro athletes in the NBA, NFL, and even MLB are just bigger. Very few MLB players are less than 200 pounds these days. Most would be heavyweights or 184 pounders at the least.

 

All that said, I wonder if you could take a half-dozen SEC linebackers and linemen, how long would it take them to train at wrestling before they could beat Dom Bradley or Tony Nelson?

 

Jimmy Lawsom played at Monmouth a Division III school. He wasn't recruited by any D1 programs.

 

Ok, you guys are missing the point, of course, there are wrestlers who are strong. My argument isn't based on based on one athletic criteria, gymnast are strong, NHL athletes are strong ... I'm sure there are a bunch that can bench XYZ many times, my point is the sheer combination of athletic abilities is greatest among football players.

 

Tavon Austin , 174lbs, benched 225 14 times, most people aren't doing that regardless of weight ... however Tavon Austin also ran 4.37 , 40 yard dash time. His vert was so so at 32"s , but trust me I know the vast majority of wrestlers elite athletes for wrestling are not likely running anywhere near 4.4, 4.5, 4.6 times. His shuttle time was also excellent indicating elite quickness not just speed.

 

So, this goes back to my point, the combination of size, strength, speed, quickness are simply at another level for football players, making them the best athletes on the planet that was my point. I'm not arguing that wrestlers aren't as good in some aspects, especially strength, but it's the combination of various aspects. And I'm sorry wrestlers do not compare overall , same weight or not.

 

Finally, I agree there have been wrestlers that were athletic enough to play in the NFL. Yes, you are right, some of the very best athletes that wrestling has had on occasion have been good enough to play in the NFL, however, the NFL is made up of an entire league of athletes good enough to play in the NFL. Being as wrestling doesn't require this level of athleticism and if you are that athletic football is more lucrative, so you probably wouldn't have stuck with wrestling to begin with, thusly there are fewer individuals with that athletic level that even will attempt wrestling over say football.

 

With that said there are plenty of athletes in college football good enough athletically to play in the NFL however they are not good enough at NFL skills to play in the NFL. With all that said it's not just size that's the differentiator, football players are simply superior athletes, it's insane to me that you would even attempt to argue that it's simply size. I would say the average college football player would likely instantly among the most athletic wrestlers. Feel free to go measure the 40 times of the average college wrestler and compare it to the 40 time of the average college football skill position player and let me know who you think is going to come out ahead?

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Interesting conversation.

 

So which athletes do the Navy Seals like best? Water polo isn't it? And that's not even on Acadia's list (nor is swimming). Seals also like wrestlers. They are apparently measuring other things including mental.

 

Someone mentioned that great "combine" numbers isn't necessarily a predictor of success in football. Those measurements would even be less a predictor in wrestling, IMO.

 

Go back to my list. I listed the criteria

 

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping, etc )

endurance

quickness

coordination

eye hand/foot coordination (just added now)

toughness

 

I listed the criteria, I should hav elisted swimmers , they have elite level endurance. Mental is not an "athletic ability". Being a good enough "athlete" for a navy seal does not make you an elite athlete, it makes you good enough for the Navy Seals. I would put swimmers in the same category as tri-athletes, long distance runners, cyclist, in terms of athletic ability.

 

Simply put football players are at or near the top in more categories, hence why, I say NFL players are the best overall athletes on the planet.

 

Elite Swimmers have great endurance but how do they compare in all the categories compared to an NFL player. Baseball players have unparalleled eye hand coordination but how do they compare in all the categories to NFL players. That's my point.

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Jordan Burroughs is a phenomenal athlete, but I think you are underestimating the number of people in the general population that can do the things he does in that video (with the exception of the wrestling of course).

 

I'm actually not. I wasn't pointing to the whole video as a phenomenal display of anything. I was pointing to specifically the section where he was cleaning and jerking 225 with ease at 175 lbs (hence my comment on where to start watching), which is a lot more impressive than benching that weight, which is what acadia was referring to as a test of strength/power at a recent NFL combine (14 reps). Nothing more. The point, of course, being that I'm sure JB compares favorably in strength and power adjusted for his small size. I remember watching Penn State backup 118 lber John Bove, who wrestled 114.5 in freestyle that summer, put up 225 6x at a summer wrestling camp, and he was not even in the same league as JB in terms of power. Anyway, I think the bench press is a poor test of functional strength or power.

 

And also, I highly doubt Burroughs was doing one arm pullups of any sort, let alone with extra weight. A true one arm pullup (not the crap where you grab your own wrist but are holding the bar with one hand) is extremely uncommon among elite athletes. Usually only very lightweight guys can do it. Here is a very impressive example of a guy doing some.

 

You can doubt it but that doesn't make it any less true. I believe it was Flo that had a video of JB doing one-arm pull-ups (legitimate ones) before the Olympics, and I've seen it with my own two eyes, but I can't find it as I noted. I know what a one-arm pull-up is, by the way, no need to patronize. Three guys on my college wrestling team were able to do it when we were pulling weight, and I was one of them.

 

Let's try this again, being strong, is not good enough to make you an NFL athlete,or even a college football player, there are plenty of strong people. In my listed categories,

 

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping,etc ...)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

Wrestlers would score very well in the strength category , I agree, however they aren't going to have higher verts , remotely close 40 times, etc ... so yes, granted they are strong enough ... but being good enough in football requires a lot more than just strength. I would also argue wrestlers are going to score higher in the endurance category ... etc ... but again it's the sum of athletic abilities. Not just 1 category.

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So what's the point? Being the "greatest athletes" allows success in some sports but not others? Where does that get you?

 

Don't underestimate the mental aspect for success.

 

So which is tougher? To make an NFL roster or a Navy Seal roster? :D

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So what's the point? Being the "greatest athletes" allows success in some sports but not others? Where does that get you?

 

Don't underestimate the mental aspect for success.

 

So which is tougher? To become an NFL starter or a Navy Seal starter? :D

 

Uhmmm .. ok, i'll try it again , I'm not talking about "success" I'm talking about pure athletic ability. Mental again is not "an athletic ability", it's well "a mental ability" ... if you want the best mental ability look no further than say I don't know academic researchers? What's your point.

 

I don't care which is tougher to do ... it's irrelevant. It's like saying which is tougher to become an NFL player or an NBA player, the answer, likely NBA player, why because there are only about 400 so openings to become NBA players and about 1600 openings to become an NFL player.

 

Also which is tougher to do become CEO of coke cola or a Navy seal??? What does that have to do with measured athletic ability across many categories.

 

Finally, "greatest athlete" is simply a measure who scores the best in the most athletic ability categories. That's why I put the decathaetes second.

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Let's try this again, being strong, is not good enough to make you an NFL athlete,or even a college football player, there are plenty of strong people. In my listed categories,

 

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping,etc ...)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

Wrestlers would score very well in the strength category , I agree, however they aren't going to have higher verts , remotely close 40 times, etc ... so yes, granted they are strong enough ... but being good enough in football requires a lot more than just strength. I would also argue wrestlers are going to score higher in the endurance category ... etc ... but again it's the sum of athletic abilities. Not just 1 category.

 

Lets' try what again? Do you really think you're educating anyone by listing a handful of athletic attributes and talking about NFL combine stats? Nothing that you said is news to me. I too follow football, as I'm sure most on this board do.

 

You said you thought JB was not a great athlete outside of wrestling. I disagreed. You pointed to bench press reps as an example of the type of athletic performance possible for even a WR at an NFL combine. I posted what I believe to be a more impressive display of strength and power (clean and jerking the same weight for reps at a lower bodyweight, not to speak of one-arm pullups, etc.). So what exactly are we trying again?

 

My point is still that I disagree with your notion that JB is some average or subpar athlete by NFL standards.

 

Who cares about NFL standards anyway? Is this not a discussion of best overall athlete? Since when do NFL combine stats dictate who the best athlete is? NFL combine stats don't even dictate who the best football players are. I already talked about the significant deficiencies of NFL combine tests as a proxy for "pure athleticism", in wrestling or otherwise. I'm sure the majority of NFL players would look like a bunch of pussies if they were tested for athletic traits that favor wrestlers, such as work capacity over 5+ minutes. Does that make Ricky Durso a better athlete than Tom Brady? I don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

 

Let's try this again: The notion that the world's best wrestler is only a great athlete by wrestling standards is a joke, and bringing up tests that even NFL insiders don't consider to be anywhere near complete as proof is even funnier.

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Acadia do you remember when Marcus Jones was near unconscious after a training session during TUF 10? All the former wrestlers in the team were ok! In MMA former nfl and football players sucks.

International Wrestlers (greco and freestyle) are the best athletes in the world and have higher specific strength and power than nfl players. In nfl you can see former collegiate wrestlers not international level wresters.Probably nfl players are better in running.

 

http://keepwrestlingintheolympics.com/

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" "greatest athlete" is simply a measure who scores the best in the most athletic ability categories."

 

This is a narrow definition, which makes it pretty much useless, other than to say that high scorers are excellent at certain specific things, that football teams look for. My objection is based on the anticipation that it would become a premise for other conclusions.

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Let's try this again, being strong, is not good enough to make you an NFL athlete,or even a college football player, there are plenty of strong people. In my listed categories,

 

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping,etc ...)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

Wrestlers would score very well in the strength category , I agree, however they aren't going to have higher verts , remotely close 40 times, etc ... so yes, granted they are strong enough ... but being good enough in football requires a lot more than just strength. I would also argue wrestlers are going to score higher in the endurance category ... etc ... but again it's the sum of athletic abilities. Not just 1 category.

 

Lets' try what again? Do you really think you're educating anyone by listing a handful of athletic attributes and talking about NFL combine stats? Nothing that you said is news to me. I too follow football, as I'm sure most on this board do too.

 

You said you thought JB was not a "great" athlete outside of wrestling. I disagreed. You pointed to bench press reps as an example of the type of athletic performance possible for even a WR at an NFL combine. I posted what I believe to be a more impressive display of strength and power (clean and jerking the same weight for reps at a lower bodyweight, not to speak of one-arm pullups, etc.). So what exactly are we trying again?

 

My point is still that I disagree with your notion that JB is some average or subpar athlete by NFL standards.

 

Who cares about NFL standards anyway? Is this not a discussion of best overall athlete? Since when do NFL combine stats dictate who the best athlete is? NFL combine stats don't even dictate who the best football players are. I already talked about the significant deficiencies of NFL combine tests as a proxy for "pure athleticism", in wrestling or otherwise. I'm sure the majority of NFL players would look like a bunch of pussies if they were tested for athletic traits that favor wrestlers, such as work capacity over 5+ minutes. Does that make Ricky Durso a better athlete than Tom Brady? I don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

 

Let's try this again: The notion that the world's best wrestler is only a great athlete by wrestling standards is a joke, and bringing up tests that even NFL insiders don't consider to be anywhere near complete as proof is even funnier.

 

 

Instead of being emotional why don't you look at this objectively. I use combine stats because it's an objective measure of various athletic ability. Also, considering many football players have wrestled why do you think they are "pssies" you are getting offended at nothing. Also, I concede there are measurables that wrestlers would exceed football players, such as endurance. You are being emotional, here is the thought create an experiment that we could do , to measure each athletic ability. Then based on score 1-10 assign where the average participant falls.

 

I used the combine because it does this.

 

225 bench rep, is a good measure of strength

40 yard dash, is a good measure of strength

standing/running vert and broad jump , is a good measure of explosive power

shuttle , is a good measure of quickness (ie ability to change direction) and coordination

passing/catching drills are good measure for eye hand coordination and overall coordination

 

all these things are relevant to many sports, so the combine, while specific for football is really a scientific way to measure "athletic ability" ... while it's geared toward NFL many of the drills measurables are relevant to many sports... things that we would probably need to add to further test.

 

1 or more mile run - endurance test

not quite sure how you would measure toughness???

 

And while you say JB is a great athlete by any standard it's subjective, while I think he is quick and strong, I don't think if measured you would find him close to NFL athletes, in fact, I would be hard pressed ot find him better than college level football players at the D1 level which is what somebody said, and I said wait a minute, you don't realize how good the average skill position college D1 athlete in terms of measurable. We'd actually have to measure JB for sure ... I think JB is a great athlete by wrestling standards, by college football, even if he is say D1 level ... I would wager he's pretty run of the mill. I don't have anything to judge his speed on which would be the defining factor, really.

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Those poor Water Polo-ers. You're still not listing them as athletes.

 

 

Ok, they can go ahead of NASCAR :)

 

This tells us all we need to know about your "list".

 

What the fact I have NASCAR on it ... you are right! Oh, Lake relax it was a joke ... obviously water polo athletes are atleast better than curlers :)

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Acadia:

 

Let me suggest that you're having a hard time coming up with a reasonable list because your argument is not reasonable. If you're going to debate something, all parties have to degree on definitions first, or you're not going to get anywhere. Nobody knows what "athleticism" means, and no one can measure it or define it.

 

Let's take your latest attempt at defining "athleticism":

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping,etc ...)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

How could anyone measure toughness? (I don't even know what it is -- are we talking about resilience? Pain tolerance? Consistent performance under varying conditions?) How could you get comparable circumstances to measure toughness across sports?

 

How about coordination? How many NFL players could compete in a rock climbing contest successfully? How many could chain wrestle?

 

How many would have the endurance to finish a water polo match, a mountain stage at the Tour de France, a marathon?

 

Different sports will value different skill sets differently. An NFL combine is almost useless to predict how good an NFL player will be (Mike Mamula?), much less any other athlete. Cristiano Ronaldo has a 17 inch vertical leap (it goes all the way up to 30 inches if he's allowed to take a step before he jumps) -- he does alright for himself.

 

Football players are smaller than basketball players, so it shouldn't be surprising that they seem more "athletic" than basketball players. Seven footers aren't going to move as quickly as 5 foot 7 guys. If football players were athletic enough to be better at basketball, most of them would be doing that, because there's more money in it!

 

Even if we were to plug numbers in from some mythical "athleticism" combine, what would it tell us? It would tell us whatever we want. Football players go through a combine that makes them look like the world's best athletes, because it measures what they're good at (and because they practice the drills beforehand). Any sport could do the same thing, and it would make their top athletes look like the best in the world.

 

Even if you just measured athleticism based on two values (let's say bench press and vertical leap), as stupid as that would be, you would come up with entirely different lists of who would be the best athletes in the world, depending on how you weighted the results. The more values you measure, the more ridiculous it is to say that one athlete or group of athletes is more athletic than others. All athletes develop sport-specific skills. Cherry picking some (like the ability to dunk?) as being more impressive than others is just cherry picking.

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" "greatest athlete" is simply a measure who scores the best in the most athletic ability categories."

 

This is a narrow definition, which makes it pretty much useless, other than to say that high scorers are excellent at certain specific things, that football teams look for. My objection is based on the anticipation that it would become a premise for other conclusions.

 

Ok, so what would you define as athletic ability and how would you measure it? At some point you have to get out of philosophical and get into objectivity.

 

The decathalon exists to objectively measure overall athletic ability for example. What would you do if given the task of measuring athletic ability and what would be your criteria?

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Acadia:

 

Let me suggest that you're having a hard time coming up with a reasonable list because your argument is not reasonable. If you're going to debate something, all parties have to degree on definitions first, or you're not going to get anywhere. Nobody knows what "athleticism" means, and no one can measure it or define it.

 

Let's take your latest attempt at defining "athleticism":

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping,etc ...)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

How could anyone measure toughness? (I don't even know what it is -- are we talking about resilience? Pain tolerance? Consistent performance under varying conditions?) How could you get comparable circumstances to measure toughness across sports?

 

How about coordination? How many NFL players could compete in a rock climbing contest successfully? How many could chain wrestle?

 

How many would have the endurance to finish a water polo match, a mountain stage at the Tour de France, a marathon?

 

Different sports will value different skill sets differently. An NFL combine is almost useless to predict how good an NFL player will be (Mike Mamula?), much less any other athlete. Cristiano Ronaldo has a 17 inch vertical leap (it goes all the way up to 30 inches if he's allowed to take a step before he jumps) -- he does alright for himself.

 

Football players are smaller than basketball players, so it shouldn't be surprising that they seem more "athletic" than basketball players. Seven footers aren't going to move as quickly as 5 foot 7 guys. If football players were athletic enough to be better at basketball, most of them would be doing that, because there's more money in it!

 

Even if we were to plug numbers in from some mythical "athleticism" combine, what would it tell us? It would tell us whatever we want. Football players go through a combine that makes them look like the world's best athletes, because it measures what they're good at (and because they practice the drills beforehand). Any sport could do the same thing, and it would make their top athletes look like the best in the world.

 

Even if you just measured athleticism based on two values (let's say bench press and vertical leap), as stupid as that would be, you would come up with entirely different lists of who would be the best athletes in the world, depending on how you weighted the results. The more values you measure, the more ridiculous it is to say that one athlete or group of athletes is more athletic than others. All athletes develop sport-specific skills. Cherry picking some (like the ability to dunk?) as being more impressive than others is just cherry picking.

 

 

Quanon, I didn't have a tough time coming up with a list, either for athletic ability or sports, I simply forgot some sports like "water polo" and "swimming" , I'd put water polo ahead of swimming because water polo requires ability in more categories. While swimmers would probably win overall endurance , water polo would not be that far behind, but probably have far greater excellence in eye hand coordination.

 

Also, they didn't seem more athletic they were more athletic, which made me go look at numbers from respective combines. NFL and NBA , and I looked at similar things ... like vertical, and what I found was that surprisingly NFL skill position players had higher verts on average. Finally, your argument supports mine, you said the reasoning is that NBA players were taller, ok, you are right it's going to be more difficult for a 7'0" to have say the same dexterity as say someone smaller, that still doesn't change the fact the person who is smaller has more dexterity thusly is more athletic. Also, I gave the example of Tim Tebow who is not considered an elite athlete by NFL standards, however, he is about the same height as John Wall who went #1 the same year in the NBA, John wall and Tebow are both roughly 6'4", Tebow had an equal vert at 39.5" , which in itself was crazy and he did it at 250lbs. Moreover, I'm quite confident the strength component won't be close. Speed and quickness probably Wall, but my point, Wall was considered the best athlete or close to it at the NBA combine, Tebow wasn't even close to it at the NFL combine.

 

Athletic ability can be measured and categorized, while most sports require elitism in certain categories to excel, based on what measurables I could find, it seemed NFL players exceled in the most categories and decathaletes were 2nd. Finally, ESPN has whole segments on measuring this stuff under their sports science episodes. We really need more data and experiments but this is just what I've seen based on the data I could find.

 

It's very simple pick your categories and then measure them. Assign a point system. SUM the total. The decathlon does exactly this.

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I'm not being emotional. I'm being truthful. Your premise is a complete farce.

 

In summary... First you use as a basis for athleticism a bunch of tests that even the football community acknowledges as nothing more than data points to be taken as secondary or even tertiary evidence of athletic potential. Then you insinuate that JB is "run of the mill" even by college football standards because you think he may not do as well in those tests. Then you say that if you knew JB's speed (which I presume means 40-yard dash time), you'd have an accurate gauge of how athletic he really is.

 

Your arguments are so discombobulated that I don't even know where to begin. How about you read quanon's post, which summarizes one of the major problems with your thinking, and then consider the fact that most NFL players would suck terribly at any other professional sport, let alone wrestling. There's a reason why Deion Sanders was so special for playing just two sports well.

 

It is impossible to do a bunch of tests on people to determine their athleticism objectively because the very word athleticism presumes a significant measure of subjectivity (who is the better athlete, Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, or Manny Pacquiao?). Even if you wanted to isolate specific traits, you'd have to argue long and hard to make the case for any single test as a measure of any one trait. Let's use your own examples:

 

Bench press: No, I do not believe it is a good measure of strength. Most NSCA certified and experienced strength coaches would also disagree. A deadlift is probably the single best measure of strength since it's the one lift that activates the most total muscle fiber without requiring such a high degree of technique mastery that strength is secondary to technique (as with Olympic lifts). Even in the sport of powerlifting, which is the sport that most specifically focuses on absolute physical strength, bench press is by far the least important lift of the three.

 

40-yard dash: Not a measure of strength, or at least not pure lower-body strength (a leg press might be). It is nothing more than a measure of how fast you can run a short distance, which is heavily skewed towards athletes who have high fast-twitch muscle composition and have trained specifically for the test.

 

Vert/broad jump: Yes, a measure of power, but what makes it "good"? Why is that a better measure than clean and jerks or power cleans or snatches or some other test I could invest such as how many times you can suplex a 150-lb dummy in the span of 60 seconds? The reason why vert is measured is because it's important to football -- but relatively unimportant to the majority of sports (i.e. the majority of athletes do not specifically train for verts nor do they require the ability to jump high or broadly in their sport).

 

Shuttle: sure, a measure of quickness, but again, why is it the ultimate measure? Why not measure how many ping-pong balls you can hit from a machine that serves 120 balls a minute? Why isn't that a better measure of quickness? It certainly isolates many of the things you'd want to test for in "quickness" better, such as motor control, reflex, and speed in response to an external stimulus (which the shuttle does not even consider).

 

We could play this game all day long.

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I don't think that anyone argues that NFL players are not superior athletes than NCAA wrestlers as a group. The discussion was as to whether Burroughs in particular is as good or better. To the extent this question can be answered at all-- and maybe it cannot be-- it's a fair debate.

 

Also, the assumption that decathletes are near the top seems wrong, or calls the exercise into question. No disrespect, by the best decathlete is a guy who could not medal or come close to medalling in any of the constituent events. (In rare cases, a decathlete might be world class in one event.) So why is a guy who isn't the best at anything deemed the second best at everything? Are they stronger than say, sprinters? I doubt it.

 

Water polo, likewise, is played by guys who are good swimmers, but not good enough to win medals at swimming.

 

I think you can ask who are the quickest, the fastest, the strongest. But it's hard to say who is the best.

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I don't think that anyone argues that NFL players are not superior athletes than NCAA wrestlers as a group.

I argue against this (although I'd prefer to compare apples to apples -- college to college or pro to pro). Having read the last two pages, I imagine I'm not the only one who would argue with you. Two different sports, with different types of athletes. Is a mouse superior or inferior to an elephant?

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A mouse is inferior. Slower. Weaker. Perhaps quicker. OK, I take it back, I don't know. Are we talking pound for pound?

 

But I do stick by my other statement in that I would assume that NFL players are faster and quicker, compared to Olympic class wrestlers, even as they are bigger, and just as strong if not stronger (in absolute terms certainly, but even pound for pound). You are right it's not fair to compare pro football players to college wrestlers. I would also think that college football players are better athletes than college wrestlers. But this is AS A GROUP. Burroughs would be outstanding in any group.

 

Perhaps if anyone is familiar with the sports culture at Big 10 schools, they might know if wrestlers and football players ever work out together. That might tell us something.

 

Also Monmouth is Division I in football (or I-AA) not D III. That's how Lawson was on scholarship. And the school has had a few NFL players.

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I think there are different types of athletism and for wrestling, there is very little difference to gain an advantage.

 

I think JB is extremely talented athletically but I also think David Taylor is as talented athletically (for wrestling) and the two of them have totally different build types. Throw Dake in with the same conversation because he has some freakish wrestling ability and then you have guys like Ruth who is a freak as well and is totally different than everyone I mentioned above.

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