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Jordan Burroughs

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I don't think that anyone argues that NFL players are not superior athletes than NCAA wrestlers as a group. The discussion was as to whether Burroughs in particular is as good or better. To the extent this question can be answered at all-- and maybe it cannot be-- it's a fair debate.

 

Also, the assumption that decathletes are near the top seems wrong, or calls the exercise into question. No disrespect, by the best decathlete is a guy who could not medal or come close to medalling in any of the constituent events. (In rare cases, a decathlete might be world class in one event.) So why is a guy who isn't the best at anything deemed the second best at everything? Are they stronger than say, sprinters? I doubt it.

 

Water polo, likewise, is played by guys who are good swimmers, but not good enough to win medals at swimming.

 

I think you can ask who are the quickest, the fastest, the strongest. But it's hard to say who is the best.

 

It's not a guess I looked at their results in individual events, and they were world class levels althiugh they were not good enough to win individual events, but that's not the point these were very good results over many different events. What is so difficult about this, I'm not saying engine is the best in any individual event, it's a question of how many things do you do well.

 

Finally, why I wouldn't use the ability to hit a ping pong as a test, because that's a skill, and skills are trainable assets they are not a measure of pure athletic ability. We all can run, jump, push, pull, very basic things, thusly by measuring those things you get Ann assessment of athletic talent sans skill assessment. Yes you can train to improve but the natural ability is pretty god given, for example, little kids removing skill you can see who are the more coordinated athletic kids pretty early on, does it change over time yes, but for the most part kids natural abilities are apparent at young age. Agreed the combine is good measure of athletic ability, but that doesn't mean high scorers are great football players, the combine is trying to see who has potential. Why because you can't teach speed, but you can teach someone to run a route. So, to answer your question why I don't use the ability to hit a ping pong over a certain interval is the same reason wouldn't use route running as a measuring stick. Skill verse pure talenr.

 

Back to JB you can teach JB'S skill level on his double, you can not teach his explosiveness. This is why we say JB is athletic. Finally, I don't understand this whole debate one minute we complain about losing wrestlers best athletes to the sports, but now you are telling me, wrestlers are much better pure athletes than I think. This is just bordering on silly in this whole debate.

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Before I respond yet again, since you asked, here is once again what we're arguing.

 

You posited that JB is not a great athlete other than in wrestling because you don't think he'd do well in the NFL combine (though you don't actually know). I, and various other posters too, think that's a crock. Beyond the absurdity of calling the world's best athlete in any sport not a great athlete, the logical sequence you use to derive your conclusion is also a crock. (No offense; even great people can spew baloney here and there.)

 

The sequence goes something like this: Athleticism can be quantified through a series of athletic tests based on the NFL combine workouts (which, by the way, were designed specifically to test football potential, nothing more), and anyone who doesn't measure up is not great, including JB.

 

The truth, though, is that athleticism cannot be quantified by a series of athletic tests based on the NFL combine. Even if it could be, such tests are nowhere near complete enough to determine total athleticism. In actuality, it is not possible to determine critical components of athleticism -- even those important for football, let alone for all sports -- through testing, such as the aforementioned "toughness" (whatever that is), motor response to pressure, functional power and strength (how effectively an athlete is able to produce maximal strength/power/speed/whatever in actual competition), sport-specific traits such as "chin" in boxing, and so on. Those traits are all part of being a great "pure athlete" (your words) but are not and cannot be measured by NFL combine workouts. Moreover, a whole slew of athletic traits that are measured in other sports to test for potential are completely ignored by the NFL combine: VO2 max, resting and max heart rate, recovery time from max heart rate, flexibility, balance (SEBT tests, etc.), mile times, maximal work capacity, etc.

 

By your standard, most of the greatest athletes in world history are just "run of the mill" by D1 football standards, athletes such as Tiger Woods, Manny Pacquiao, Anderson Silva, Babe Ruth, Michael Phelps, Larry Byrd, John Smith, etc.

 

So in the end, what I'm arguing is that JB is a great athlete, not just by wrestling standards, and using NFL combine tests to determine whether he is or not is laughable.

 

Finally, why I wouldn't use the ability to hit a ping pong as a test, because that's a skill, and skills are trainable assets they are not a measure of pure athletic ability. We all can run, jump, push, pull, very basic things, thusly by measuring those things you get Ann assessment of athletic talent sans skill assessment. Yes you can train to improve but the natural ability is pretty god given, for example, little kids removing skill you can see who are the more coordinated athletic kids pretty early on, does it change over time yes, but for the most part kids natural abilities are apparent at young age.

 

Running, jumping, pushing, and pulling may be basic, but they are trainable. D1 football players have shaved 0.2-0.4 seconds (an enormous amount) off their 40 times by training specifically for the 40-yard dash. I mean, entire sports are designed to training athletes how to run, jump, push and pull better. Have you ever heard of track and field?? And that's precisely the point: NFL prospects specifically train for the NFL combine, which was designed to test football potential only, which further makes such tests invalid as a gauge of total athleticism.

 

We could replace hitting ping pong balls with hitting the balls with your bare hands, removing the requirement that the balls make it to the other side of the table. Then it would be a pure test of agility, hand-to-eye coordination, quickness, reflexes, etc.

 

Back to JB you can teach JB'S skill level on his double, you can not teach his explosiveness. This is why we say JB is athletic. Finally, I don't understand this whole debate one minute we complain about losing wrestlers best athletes to the sports, but now you are telling me, wrestlers are much better pure athletes than I think. This is just bordering on silly in this whole debate.

 

I never said wrestlers were better athletes or whatever else you claim. I was specifically arguing the point I started this post with.

 

In fact, I even agreed that football tends to attract more than its fair share of the best athletes in the country. It's simple, a sport that offers its best athletes tens of millions of dollars is going to get much more participation than a sport that offers its best athletes tens of thousands of dollars, if that. That doesn't mean that the world's best athlete in one sport is run of the mill by NFL or D1 college football standards.

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Acadia, I never used to think of FB players as the very best athletes, but you make a good case for it. I had no idea the vertical leaps of fb players was as good/better than BB guys.

 

Something I saw many years ago seemed to support what you say. There was a charity bb game between retired 49'ers and current squad during the Steve Young/Jerry Rice era. I was astonished at the athleticism of the players, including an offensive lineman, ~300 lbs (can't remember who - Paris or Wallace??), who had a nice soft inside shot. Young would toss up alley-oops, caught one handed by Jerry Rice, who would dunk it. Quite a show!

 

Yeah, I used to think the same thing but having played pick up with the bball and fball team players I realized how freakish the fball players were, the bball players were great athletes too but it seemed that their height allowed them to excel and not be as athletic. The bball players coordination seemed a little better though. But in terms of sheer power and athleticism, defined in terms of strength, speed, jumping, running , it wasn't close, the football players were just a different sort of beast... and like you say it's not just the athletic ability it's the size at which they do it, is just absurd ... I mean you don't think of Tim Tebow by NFL standards as an ok athlete, but this is a 250lb who is slightly shorter than J. Wall , but jumps and probably has a 40 yard time in the same range, and doing it at 50lbs heavier and Wall was considered superb athlete by NBA standards. Think about how many WR's have world class speed. All around athletes I'd have to say combining attributes of

 

strength

speed

explosive power (jumping)

quickness

endurance

coordination

toughness

 

my order would be

 

NFL

 

Decathletes

 

NBA

 

Male/ Female Gymnast

 

NHL

 

Soccer

 

MMA (Including wrestlers)

 

MLB - John Kruk when admonished for being a professional athlete and yet smoking, "I ain't an athlete, lady, I'm a baseball player."

 

Ice Skating - I know you laugh but honestly what they do is actually pretty freaking tough, exceptional lower body strength

 

Tennis

 

Tri-Athletes

 

Cycling

 

Skiing

 

Table Tennis

 

Golf

 

Bowling

 

Curling

 

NASCAR

 

I know I put wrestling pretty low, but IMHO wrestling doesn't require a lot of athleticism (endurance, strength, toughness) seem to be the predominate factors for success at the low levels, but at elite level (college and beyond) coordination and explosive power come into play but doesn't meet the level of the athletes in the top sports.

 

 

Single toughest thing to do I would say ... hitting MLB fast ball.

 

 

I honestly don’t believe I am reading all this ... on a WRESTLING forum?

 

Nevertheless ...

 

Hallelujah!

 

Other sports athletes are finally being given their just due!

 

J

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I don't want to go back and read everything, but is it really being argued that JB is not a great athlete? He's a phenomenal athlete! What I thought was being argued was the degree to which his athletic ability is "rare". I think it all depend on what you mean by "rare". Clearly his ability and skills are rare. But playing in the NFL is rare. Extremely rare. So if we are comparing him to NFL athletes, then we are already comparing him to an elite group. And when compared to that elite group, if we adjust for weight, I think he would be competitive, but would not stand out among all the rest, which is what I interpreted some people as thinking. Is clean and jerking 225 for reps impressive for someone who weighs 175? Yeah, I suppose, but it depends on who you are comparing him to. In the NFL you don't have to look hard to find guys that can do that (even after adjusting for weight differences). Heck, the world record for men's clean and jerk at the 77 kg weight class (so very similar in size to JB) is 455 pounds. I doubt that guy would be impressed with 225.

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Let's recap. Someone stated that JB if he weren't wrestling would be playing college football at the D1 level because he's so athletic.

 

And stated, college football players at the D1 level are a lot more athletic than you realize, more over, I would say of any comparable level college football players are the best athletes in college, and NFL players are the best athletes in the world. I gave an anecdote about playing pickup games of bball with both football team and bball team players at college, a Div 1 ACC school, and I was shocked at how I actually discovered the fball players seemed better athletes. So, I then went and started comparing combine numbers for both the NBA and NFL, because it was objective, and was shocked that the vert numbers were higher among the NFL skill position players, even a linemen had a 40", that's freakishly athletic.

 

Armed with this I then stated JB for sure he was too small out of HS to be D1 anything, and then I stated you don't realize how different the level of aathleticism is in D1 fball compared say wrestling, so while JB is a great athlete by wrestling standards, I would be hard pressed to see that in D1 football from my experience and objective measure. I could be wrong, while I think his strength is football level, I don't know about his speed , jumping, other abilities required to play at D1 level. But who knows we'd have to measure it.

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One more thing, because wrestlers do not require the same level of athletic ability as a college D1 football player, look let's be honest we simply don't, when you do find someone with great athletic ability (compared to the genarl populous and wrestlers)... it really sticks out as is the case with JB .

 

However, now take that individual and compare it the D1 football playing populous, it's simply a different level of athlete. Could JB have that level athleticism quite possibly however, the only, measure you have against is wrestlers which on average are not remotely close to that level of athleticism. They aren't running sub 4.5's 40's, don't have 40" in verts, 3 second shuttles etc ... wrestlers tend to excel in strength and endurance, but D1 players obviously are as strong if not stronger as well. With that said, JB imho just based on lack of evidence I would not argue is D1 football material he could be, who knows.

 

Finally, is JB a great athlete, yes, just as Tiger woods is a great athlete. However, if you are measuring pure athletic ability this isn't skills assessment or greatness at a sport , it's measurable at basic activities like jumping and running, I would bet JB is far better than the genral population but not when compared to say college football D1 player and certainly not elite level athletes like NFL.

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Everybody knows that a curveball is harder to hit than a fastball. :roll:

 

Not really, go to bating cage and see how much faster 95+ mph seems compared to an 80-85 curveball. The extra 10 to 15mph's makes huge difference in reaction time required to hit either.

 

And more over MLB fast balls have serious movement couple that with the speed it's the single hardest thing to do in any sport, where one wasn't limited by say height or jumping ability. Mariano Rivera has only a cut fastball, and he is greatest closer that MLB has ever seen. Think about it, you know it's coming, but it's thrown so hard with such movement it doesn't matter.

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Is clean and jerking 225 for reps impressive for someone who weighs 175? Yeah, I suppose, but it depends on who you are comparing him to. In the NFL you don't have to look hard to find guys that can do that (even after adjusting for weight differences). Heck, the world record for men's clean and jerk at the 77 kg weight class (so very similar in size to JB) is 455 pounds. I doubt that guy would be impressed with 225.

 

And the world record for bench press is over 1,000 lbs. I'm sure a 225 lb bench press would not be impressive either to a real powerlifter, who warms up with that weight while clipping his toenails and reading the newspaper in between reps. Anyway, we were talking about double-digit reps, not one rep maxes.

 

You clearly missed the entire thread, as you admitted. The 225 bench versus clean and jerk thing was a truly minor aside in this discussion.

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Finally, is JB a great athlete, yes, just as Tiger woods is a great athlete. However, if you are measuring pure athletic ability this isn't skills assessment or greatness at a sport , it's measurable at basic activities like jumping and running, I would bet JB is far better than the genral population but not when compared to say college football D1 player and certainly not elite level athletes like NFL.

 

Once again, for what seems like the 20th time, since when is the vertical leap and the 40-yard dash (and whichever other NFL combine test you want) the ultimate measure of what you call pure athleticism? That's where this thread is particularly hilarious. You and I and several others are just talking past ourselves. What you're really saying is JB is probably (though you don't know) not a standout NFL combine performer. With that, I won't argue because I don't know either. But to say that he's not a great athlete is just retarded.

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Finally, is JB a great athlete, yes, just as Tiger woods is a great athlete. However, if you are measuring pure athletic ability this isn't skills assessment or greatness at a sport , it's measurable at basic activities like jumping and running, I would bet JB is far better than the genral population but not when compared to say college football D1 player and certainly not elite level athletes like NFL.

 

Once again, for what seems like the 20th time, since when is the vertical leap and the 40-yard dash (and whichever other NFL combine test you want) the ultimate measure of what you call pure athleticism? That's where this thread is particularly hilarious. You and I and several others are just talking past ourselves. What you're really saying is JB is probably (though you don't know) not a standout NFL combine performer. With that, I won't argue because I don't know either. But to say that he's not a great athlete is just retarded.

 

No it's not the ultimate measure but it's basal in that it doesn't require skills to do so. pushing, pulling, Jumping, running, walking, throwing, catching, endurance, kciking are things we are able to do without acquire skills to do so. The accumulation of skills is application of the above things in some form or another. No one is implying that the combine is the only measure of athletic ability but it's objective and a good indicator of athletic ability. We would likely add more things to do truly test athletic ability like an endurance component. And by no means does the best overall athlete mean that you are the best for a particular sport, however, it does mean overall athletic ability is greatest in that individual.

 

And let's try this again, I said, he is a great athlete by wrestling standards, or great athlete in the way Tiger Woods is a great athlete, he's a great athlete compared to 98% of the population, but the original discussion was he'd be playing D1 football, and I said, wait a second D1 football players are altogether different level of athletes and NFL athletes are the best overall athletes in the world. He could be that athletic but we'd need ot measure and I also argue because overall athleticism in wrestling is lower than say D1 football, if he is very good athlete he'll stick out a lot in our sport. Finally, Like I said if you don't like the criteria come up with your own categories and quantify athletic prowress objectively. Propose a solution to the problem instead of comlaining about my methodology offer an alternative. I chose the combine because it offers empirical objective data that I could compare when comparing NFL and NBA players. Who most people would agree , IMHO are more athletic than wrestlers in more "athletic" categories although in some categories wrestlers would be higher, like strength, would go to wrestlers vs NBA players.

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Here is a better way to put this ... would you like to see more kids choose wrestling over football? Or does football steal more athletic individuals?

 

Finally, say you have the chance to build your wrestling team, these are novices, they have know wrestling skills what so ever. Now, you are allowed to work them out in a combine like test, to measure things like strength, speed, eye hand coordination , quickness, endurance ... etc ... now after doing this, you assign each kid a score. Are you going to pick your team made up of individuals with lower scores or are you going to tend toward the kids that score higher?

 

That's what I'm calling athletic ability, it's sans application of "athletic talent". You are defining it in terms of application of ability, I'm not, I'm defining pure measurables.

 

"You can't teach speed." is the easiest way I can define it. which goes back to would JB be playing D1 football. Tiger woods is a big dude 6'3" huge shoulders, great athlete in your sense, he's not playing on anyones D1 team in my sense.

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Is clean and jerking 225 for reps impressive for someone who weighs 175? Yeah, I suppose, but it depends on who you are comparing him to. In the NFL you don't have to look hard to find guys that can do that (even after adjusting for weight differences). Heck, the world record for men's clean and jerk at the 77 kg weight class (so very similar in size to JB) is 455 pounds. I doubt that guy would be impressed with 225.

 

And the world record for bench press is over 1,000 lbs. I'm sure a 225 lb bench press would not be impressive either to a real powerlifter, who warms up with that weight while clipping his toenails and reading the newspaper in between reps. Anyway, we were talking about double-digit reps, not one rep maxes.

 

You clearly missed the entire thread, as you admitted. The 225 bench versus clean and jerk thing was a truly minor aside in this discussion.

 

 

Look man it's just give you an idea about general strength of an individual. It' snot a measure of technique, clean jerk, of the fact that someone can bench much more ... it's just something everyone can do with little training and allows for a basis of comparison. Gawd man this is getting stupid. Moreover, I've never argued never argued that JB was not "strong enough" or as "strong as D1 football" player, in fact, I would put wrestlers in the same league as college football players in terms of strength, as wrestling requires strength. I'm talking overall athleticism. It' s not the fact that Tavon Austin can bench 225lbs 14x's while only weighing 174lbs that makes him D1 material, it's that he runs a 4.37 40 as well. Get it ???? I'm not saying JB isn't good enough in some categories in others I'd need more evidence.

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That's what I'm calling athletic ability, it's sans application of "athletic talent". You are defining it in terms of application of ability, I'm not, I'm defining pure measurables.

 

You really don't read very well. What I and some others are saying is that not only is athleticism an amorphous concept and therefore difficult if not impossible to quantify in totality, your definition in particular is very specific to football and lacks a lot of criteria. I listed a bunch above. I am NOT defining athleticism solely as application of ability, or what have you. I am saying your definition is grossly incomplete.

 

What you're saying is JB may not be a great football player because he might not do well at the combine. What I'm saying is, first, how the hell do you know, and second, even if you did, who cares? He's a wrestler. He's also one of the best athletes in the world. You can decide to argue with that by pointing to silly football tests, but football tests are not the only measure of athleticism. They're not even particularly good ones for football itself.

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My guess would be that Jordan would have a pretty good 40 time and a great score in agility drills. Certainly he can bench. Why would anyone who has seen his workouts-- his amazing one arm pull ups, his hurdle jumps-- think otherwise?

 

More generally, there is probably an inverse relationship between skills need and pure athleticism. Wrestlers have a lot of specialized skills (maybe not heavyweights). So do baseball players and golfers. Football players really do not, except for QBs, even at the "skill" positions. Thus there is a premium on pure athleticism, speed and power.

 

This is why every year the NFL drafts basketball players who did not play college football and it will sign some track athletes (and even some wrestlers to play line) who have never played football at all.

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I found the one arm pullup video. And he definitely does a legit one here. Although the claim was made above that he's doing one arm pullups with 60 lbs added. From the look of this video from last summer, his goal would be a 2nd rep with bodyweight.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iln6ueBrfg

 

Doing a 1 armer definitely puts you in the category of pretty damn strong, although some quick searches on youtube will find that it's not as rare as you might think, although it's usually lighter guys that can do them.

 

But check this dude out and how big he is:

 

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Acadia has confused himself by making two different arguments. First, he says that D1 (or NFL) football players are superior athletes compared to wrestlers. That may be true, especially if NFL combine drills are the metric.

 

But the he says that one particular wrestler, Burroughs, is not a good enough athlete to excel at the combine (or perhaps to play football). This is nonsense as JB is off the charts compared to other wrestlers. He is so strong and fast that he'd likely outperform most football players of his size or close to his size.

 

Then Acadia confuses himself further by citing the exploits of one particular player, Tavon Austin (14 benc reps at 225 and very fast). But Tavon is not the norm-- he is projected as the top WR in the upcoming draft. If Martin is a better athlete than Burroughs-- possible, but uncertain-- that does not mean that the average NFL player is better than Burroughs.

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That's what I'm calling athletic ability, it's sans application of "athletic talent". You are defining it in terms of application of ability, I'm not, I'm defining pure measurables.

 

You really don't read very well. What I and some others are saying is that not only is athleticism an amorphous concept and therefore difficult if not impossible to quantify in totality, your definition in particular is very specific to football and lacks a lot of criteria. I listed a bunch above. I am NOT defining athleticism solely as application of ability, or what have you. I am saying your definition is grossly incomplete.

 

What you're saying is JB may not be a great football player because he might not do well at the combine. What I'm saying is, first, how the hell do you know, and second, even if you did, who cares? He's a wrestler. He's also one of the best athletes in the world. You can decide to argue with that by pointing to silly football tests, but football tests are not the only measure of athleticism. They're not even particularly good ones for football itself.

 

No, i'm not saying that JB may not be a great football player. Doing well at the combine does not make you a great football player it makes you athletic. Finally, there is nothing amorphous about measuring pure athletic ability it's pretty clear. The combine exists to measure your pure athletic ability, that's why guys who suck on football film but show great athletic ability find themselves going much higher than expected, because, you can teach them to play football, but athletic ability is simply genetics and god given talent.

 

It's quite scientific, sports science on ESPN does it, for example, they measured believe it or not John Wall and Jeremy Lins acceleration or quickness to be identical. By measuring distance/direction over time from stand still and then the change. This is not debatable stuff, you think athletic ability is amorphous , it' snot, no more than saying intelligence is amorphous, it's not. Finally, if you don't like may basic criteria which removes sports specific skill

 

strength

explosive power (jumping, etc)

speed

quickness

coordination

eye hand/feet coordination

endurance

toughness (this one is tough to measure, I guess beyond doing some sort of pain threshold test)

 

Then by all means tell me what is criteria you would define as athletic ability or measurable? Stop telling my argument is arbitrary it's not, it's chosen on criteria. Clearly the fact that you belive the combine is a measure of how good a football player you are shows me you have no understanding of the subject. The combine is for measuring athletic ability ... while the drills are geared to football , they don't have you running routes , an d plays etc ... or football specific skillz for the most part, workouts are for that, it's there to determine your athletic ability. Manti T'eo stock dropped because on film it seemed he was slower than his production would indicate, low and behold he 4.82 40 time, which confirmed that what scouts thought about his "athletic ability" not his football prowress. ANYWAY YOU TELL ME SOME CRITERIA OT MEASURE?

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Acadia has confused himself by making two different arguments. First, he says that D1 (or NFL) football players are superior athletes compared to wrestlers. That may be true, especially if NFL combine drills are the metric.

 

But the he says that one particular wrestler, Burroughs, is not a good enough athlete to excel at the combine (or perhaps to play football). This is nonsense as JB is off the charts compared to other wrestlers. He is so strong and fast that he'd likely outperform most football players of his size or close to his size.

 

Then Acadia confuses himself further by citing the exploits of one particular player, Tavon Austin (14 benc reps at 225 and very fast). But Tavon is not the norm-- he is projected as the top WR in the upcoming draft. If Martin is a better athlete than Burroughs-- possible, but uncertain-- that does not mean that the average NFL player is better than Burroughs.

 

I'm not confusing myself. It's been a long discussion with many points, so let me give you a point by point so you aren't confused.

 

Premise "JB would be playing D1 football" that was the comment that started

 

Counter points by me

 

1) JB was too small out of HS, the athletic ability for college football players is much higher than you think, thusly while JB looks like a ridiculous athlete by wrestling standards and against wrestlers and video showing him lifting, you will find that all D1 skill position players possess at least this level of skill that you see in the videos JB doing in terms strength, yes they do. So, what JB is doing there is not special by football standards.

 

2) Finally, people think of NBA players as superb athletes they are, so to prove to you how good football players are I took quantifiable empirical based on combines because that's all that I could find to go on for NBA and NFL players, and at skill position something NBA Players are known for "leaping" the NFL players surpassed them, while also being much stronger and powerful and bigger in regards to muscle composition. So, the athletic ability of pure athleticism required to play football is higher in more categories. Which then you can argue at college level even to get that level you would have to be a pretty special athlete.

 

3) Finally, on Tavon Austin, I chose him because he's small, and similar in size to Burroughs at 174lbs, but he is anomaly, he is a on D1 team because he is strong but he is exceptionally fast (4.37) 40 yard time as well, so with that said, back to the original argument at JB's size , he will need to be this sort of athlete to play D1 football atleasat at the D1-A level.

 

Finally, I do not think jumping, running, strength, endurance, eye hand coordination and coordination, quickness, toughness etc ... are football specific they are agnostic nearly any sport skill required is an implementation of 1 or more of these categories. So it would stand to reason if you excel in 1 or more of these categories you will be pretty good at some sport.

 

And in conclusion JB is impressive as an athlete against wrestlers but is he athletic enough in terms of D1 football ability, without some more measurable if the statement was made solely on perceived athletic ability because the bar for college football is quite high.

 

Thank You, are you unconfused now.

QED

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athletic ability is simply genetics and god given talent.

No. It is trainable.

 

This is not debatable stuff, you think athletic ability is amorphous , it' snot, no more than saying intelligence is amorphous, it's not.

This wikipedia article lists some of the debates on measures of intelligence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligen ... telligence

 

strength

explosive power (jumping, etc)

speed

quickness

coordination

eye hand/feet coordination

endurance

toughness (this one is tough to measure, I guess beyond doing some sort of pain threshold test)

Here's a variety of tests that measure a lot of this stuff.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/eval.htm

 

As far as I know, no one is marketing a system of tests to determine overall athleticism (probably because it's futile exercize). You would think that someone would have already come up with this -- you could sell it to parents who would want to put their children in their "ideal" sport. I poked around on google for a couple of minutes but I couldn't find anything.

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Acadia, in response to your last post directed at me, I basically agree with what quanon just posted. Athletic ability is trainable, no question. An individual's absolute genetic limit for each particular trait may not be trainable but a tiny, tiny portion of humans ever achieve their genetic potential in anything. Intelligence is not quantifiable. As for this magically predictive objective system that you keep touting, you're never going to sell it to anyone with serious experience in the study of human athletic performance because there can be no such system.

 

As for the additional athletic traits that you keep asking for, I proposed numerous others to add to your list as an example of how many there are that you are not considering. I only did so to make the point that it is impossible to come up with an "IQ" type of number for athleticism. I put the term IQ in quotes because IQ, an attempt to quantify intelligence through objective testing, fails miserably at its job and has been the subject of much criticism in both practice and academia ever since it was invented. Does anyone even take IQ tests anymore?

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"Forget benching 225 for reps; look at this video of JB (around 175 lbs) doing full snatch, clean and jerks with 225 for reps like he's flipping burgers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... 3cMWI&NR=1 (start at 1:09). He does do one-arm pullups with 50-lb DBs strapped on"

 

First of all, that is either 135lbs or 145lbs (depending on the weight of the bar JB is using). Those are 25lb bumper plates on the bar. Pause the video if you don't believe me. Very few people in the world can move 225lbs like that and JB is certainly not one of them.

 

 

1. Its funny that a lot of people are assuming fb players are the best "athletes." American football is the least global of the major sports and draws from a much smaller pool of athletes than many other sports. Rugby, a sport that requires similar skill sets, is much more likely to have better athletes because it is played more widely.

 

2. There have been examples of guys who didn't play college fb who went on to fine careers in the NFL (Gates, Neal, Haselrig...). I can't think of any NFLers that left to play another sport. I like a wrestler's (especially Taymazov) chances of making an NFL team a lot more than I like an NFL player placing in a national wrestling tournament.

 

3. The NFL combine is a terrible predictor of athleticism. Ask any GM who was fired for drafting based on a combine workout. Combine workouts are so generic and focus too much on the bench press, vertical leap, and 40yd dash. How often will a lineman run 40yds in a game and who cares if your qb can bench press 225 or leap 3 feet in the air? Strength and speed are great but coordination and balance are much better determinants of athleticism. Kevin Durant can't bench is own weight, is he a **** athlete? Crossfit is full of people who could perform well at the combine but not crack a D1 lineup in any sport, no less a professional league. A wrestler is much more likely to excel in a fb workout than a fb player is to excel in a wrestling workout. (Don't let the combine fool you, fb players train relentlessly for almost 5 months in order to perform at their highest in those specific skills during the combine. Most of those guys never come close to repeating their combine performance throughout their careers. Its just not necessary and the training isn't fb specific enough)

 

4. Wrestlers compete in weight classes throughout their careers, therefore limiting their ability to bulk up to the requisite size to compete in many other sports. Wrestling also requires much more training because of the specificity of the skill needed to reach the upper levels of competition. Some wrestlers can go from the mat to the gridiron and compete successfully. But no footballer could leave the field and compete successfully in wrestling on the national level, no less the world level.

 

Jordan Burroughs can confidently say he is the best in the world at his weight in his sport. Very few athletes and say the same.

 

It is more than likely that the greatest athletes in the world are spread out over many positions in many sports. I certainly wouldn't narrow it down to one position in one specific sport.

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Do you remember when Marcus Jones (former NFL) was near unconscious after a training session during TUF 10? All the former wrestlers in the team were ok! Not top international level but D3 wreslers!

In MMA former nfl and football players sucks.

International Wrestlers (greco and freestyle) are the best athletes in the world and have higher specific strength and power than nfl players. In nfl you can see former collegiate wrestlers not international level wresters.Probably nfl players are better in running.

 

http://keepwrestlingintheolympics.com/

 

 

http://keepwrestlingintheolympics.com/

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Do you remember when Marcus Jones (former NFL) was near unconscious after a training session during TUF 10? All the former wrestlers in the team were ok! Not top international level but D3 wreslers!

In MMA former nfl and football players sucks.

International Wrestlers (greco and freestyle) are the best athletes in the world and have higher specific strength and power than nfl players. In nfl you can see former collegiate wrestlers not international level wresters.Probably nfl players are better in running.

 

http://keepwrestlingintheolympics.com/

 

 

http://keepwrestlingintheolympics.com/

 

You completely miss the point, so what Marcus Jones passed out after 1 wrestling practice. Have him train from birth like most wrestlers do and see how he would have turned out. If you believe that wrestlers have superior natural athletic talent to NFL athletes, then I don't want to hear a complaint about how football is stealing all the potentially great wrestlers any longer in these forums. Seriously, this debate is stupid if the guys who are in the NFL now chose wrestling as opposed to football, the US would win every WC, and JBs would be the expected. The bottom line in this country the best athletes play football they do not choose wrestling. End of story. I tire of this debate. Believe what you want.

 

And for the person who said you could train athletic athletic ability feel free to train and out run Usain bolt. You can train for athletic success or realize athletic ability but the pre disposition is genetic. For example height, the potential is defined at birth, the realization of that height is a function of nutrition. All things being equal between one person A, another person B, where As maximal height potential is greater than B, if given the same nutrition, sleep, etc A will grow taller, period. You can train to the maximal of your abilities that's what you can train to, you can't train athletic ability that's already hard coded. Total athletic output could ( defined) as simple math function,

 

 

Athletic predisposition + training = output

 

If training is held constant, athletic predisposition is the the only variable and that is defined via genetics. Period. It's like any other body function.

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