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Jordan Burroughs

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So how do basketball players do in the NBA combines?

 

Should USA Wrestling begin combines to determine invites to the WTTs. I assume wrestling combines would be identical to football combines with all the same tests. Correct?

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So how do basketball players do in the NBA combines?

 

Should USA Wrestling begin combines to determine invites to the WTTs. I assume wrestling combines would be identical to football combines with all the same tests. Correct?

 

I don't understand the question? I see where you are going though, but the NBA prospects would be compared against other NBA prospects at their combine, furthermore the NBA combine isn't as much a measure of pure athletic ability as the NFL combine, it's more basketball specific I think you confuse the NFL combine as being highly football specific when it comes to measureable, its not, it exist to measure your athletic potential, they feel that they can teach football specific skills. The wonderlic isn't a test of your football knowledge but its a general aptitude test that can be taken in short time, and from it in theory one can extrapolate an idea of someones mental ability. But it isn't a football specific test. Think of the NFL combine like this in terms of measurables, It's just chance that I believe the NFL combine covers enough categories to get an idea about base athletic talent that I believe can be extrapolated for use in deriving someones general athletic ability. If it was more specific, I would say probably not a good idea to try to extrapolate overall athletic talent from NFL combine.

 

No I wouldn't select WTT based on athletic test, it would be like selecting BCS game based on the most athletic team, however one could select individuals to start training at young at the OTC based on athletic tslent test.

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No I wouldn't select WTT based on athletic test, it would be like selecting BCS game based on the most athletic team, however one could select individuals to start training at young at the OTC based on athletic tslent test.

 

You're not really suggesting that 40 times and vertical leaps would be a good way to figure out who should be training at the OTC from a young age, are you?

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"I think you confuse the NFL combine as being highly football specific when it comes to measureable, its not, it exist to measure your athletic potential, they feel that they can teach football specific skills"

 

Exactly! That means it should be applicable to any sport.

 

Football players go through the football combine after some college. Do the same with wrestlers. Put them through the FOOTBALL combine after some college.

 

1. The key to a team's success in an athletic endeavor is having the best overall athletes.

2. Wrestling is an athletic endeavour.

3. Thus, success in wrestling, since it is an athletic endeavor, requires having the best overall athletes who are available.

4. Only the FOOTBALL combine is successful in measuring the best overall athletes.

5. Therefore, all wrestlers, being recruited, should go through the FOOTBALL combine.

 

It's straight line logic.

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No I wouldn't select WTT based on athletic test, it would be like selecting BCS game based on the most athletic team, however one could select individuals to start training at young at the OTC based on athletic tslent test.

 

You're not really suggesting that 40 times and vertical leaps would be a good way to figure out who should be training at the OTC from a young age, are you?

 

Yeah, I would actually make it a component of an athletic test. Assume you are starting from 0, you have not taught an 8-9 year old any "wrestling specific" skills, obviously you can design test that are more rwrestling specific to find out how they would pick up wrestling concepts, however, all things being equal this would be a good measure of explosive power in their legs. Granted kids will change as they mature however it's a good across the board measure everyone can do without any necessity for a skills based test on day 1 or training. So, the kids that specifically can leap higher could be surmised to have more explosive force in their legs ... 40 times aren't as applicable to wrestling because it's a different type of motion beyond that generally for young kids the faster kids tend to be overall the more athletic kids.

 

For wrestling obviously you might want to look at other things, flexibility ... for example. How do you think the Chinese athletic program is very strong in gymanstics , they identify at a very early age kids who are powerful and flexible with good body control, and then they train them, you aren't going to start with o verweight kid who can't run up a flight of steps. Yes, that could very well train and be unbelievable, but you don't know this, so they start with the more athletic sure bet.

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"I think you confuse the NFL combine as being highly football specific when it comes to measureable, its not, it exist to measure your athletic potential, they feel that they can teach football specific skills"

 

Exactly! That means it should be applicable to any sport.

 

Football players go through the football combine after some college. Do the same with wrestlers. Put them through the FOOTBALL combine after some college.

 

1. The key to a team's success in an athletic endeavor is having the best overall athletes.

2. Wrestling is an athletic endeavour.

3. Thus, success in wrestling, since it is an athletic endeavor, requires having the best overall athletes who are available.

4. Only the FOOTBALL combine is successful in measuring the best overall athletes.

5. Therefore, all wrestlers, being recruited, should go through the FOOTBALL combine.

 

It's straight line logic.

 

Ok, put them through the football combine. I don't see your point? I don't have a problem with that.

 

My point is , even if wrestlers did this, they would not score as well as indivduals who became football players. Because wrestling does not get the "overall best athletes" for a variety of reasons , namely

 

1) wrestling is not more popular than the big 3 sports in the US

2) wrestling is not more lucrative than the big 3, it's not even remotely close

 

thusly this goes back to my point, even if I trained for combine, it would not make a difference, because the people already there have greater maximal potentials than mine plus they are trained. going back to the JB argument, which really is heresay, 1 way or the other he may or may not be D1 college football materia.

 

However, based on the fact there is big gap in participation numbers between wrestling and football, as well as the fact that really athletic individuals choose other sports, I can not say that J. Burroughs is D1 college football material. As the bar is much higher there in terms of "need for pure athletic ability" to be successful. Which goes back to original statement J. Burroughs against wrestling standards is an unbelievable athlete, but it's questionable as to whether he would be D1 football material, if you are basing that solely on the perception of his athleticism . That's all I was saying. It's no more complicated than saying Tiger Woods "A Great Athlete and very athletic by golf standards" is not likely to be "D1 college football" material, obviously, there is a huge gap between the overall athletic ability needed to be successful in golf vs wrestling and the gap between wrestling and football isn't that great. But football is the #1 sport in the country and the best athletes tend to be in it so think about how high the bar has to be to even play at the college D1 level.

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Acadia, I actually know a little about how the Chinese select their gymnasts. One of my friend's kids went to a famous gymnastics school in Iowa run by a former Chinese Olympic gymnast (maybe it was World team and not Olympic team, I don't recall). It's a legit program that has produced US World team members and Olympians. I've heard the stories from the Chinese coach. Let's just say that there are no 225 lb bench press reps or 40-yard dashes involved. Most NFL athletes would look like a bunch of retards trying any of the drills that the Chinese youth is judged by on a daily basis. I'd say a ton of the selection criteria is really subjective, actually. And I'd say unequivocally that the Chinese gymnasts that were selected through this process are all exceptional athletes who might or might not outscore your garden variety couch potato at the NFL combine.

 

Taking it closer to home, I used to be a volunteer assistant at a HS. The full-time assistant was a former Soviet national team member (I think he placed top 5 in Tbilisi once) who had emigrated to the US. I not only learned a lot of wrestling from him, I also learned about the way the pre-pubescent candidates for the Soviet wrestling schools were selected. No 40-yard dashes. No bench pressing. No vertical leaps or broad jumps. A lot of bodyweight drills and, most importantly, a lot of subjectivity.

 

These countries, arguably unethically, produce the best athletes in the world at their respective chosen sports by doing exactly what you suggest they do: identifying talent early on and cultivating the highest-potential performers. While I don't know the whole history of how it was done, I do know enough to say that subjectivity is an important if not majority component of who makes it into these state-run development programs and who doesn't. There's nothing like an NFL combine where kids march in and then out with scores that are used by talent scouts to place kids into various sports. It's much more of a gradual process where a general "gym class" type of atmosphere leads to the somewhat objective and somewhat subjective placement of kids into different groups. Then these kids are monitored over a period of time before they're led to further specialization.

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Acadia, I actually know a little about how the Chinese select their gymnasts. One of my friend's kids went to a famous gymnastics school in Iowa run by a former Chinese Olympic gymnast (maybe it was World team and not Olympic team, I don't recall). It's a legit program that has produced US World team members and Olympians. I've heard the stories from the Chinese coach. Let's just say that there are no 225 lb bench press reps or 40-yard dashes involved. Most NFL athletes would look like a bunch of retards trying any of the drills that the Chinese youth is judged by on a daily basis. I'd say a ton of the selection criteria is really subjective, actually. And I'd say unequivocally that the Chinese gymnasts that were selected through this process are all exceptional athletes who might or might not outscore your garden variety couch potato at the NFL combine.

 

Taking it closer to home, I used to be a volunteer assistant at a HS. The full-time assistant was a former Soviet national team member (I think he placed top 5 in Tbilisi once) who had emigrated to the US. I not only learned a lot of wrestling from him, I also learned about the way the pre-pubescent candidates for the Soviet wrestling schools were selected. No 40-yard dashes. No bench pressing. No vertical leaps or broad jumps. A lot of bodyweight drills and, most importantly, a lot of subjectivity.

 

These countries, arguably unethically, produce the best athletes in the world at their respective chosen sports by doing exactly what you suggest they do: identifying talent early on and cultivating the highest-potential performers. While I don't know the whole history of how it was done, I do know enough to say that subjectivity is an important if not majority component of who makes it into these state-run development programs and who doesn't. There's nothing like an NFL combine where kids march in and then out with scores that are used by talent scouts to place kids into various sports. It's much more of a gradual process where a general "gym class" type of atmosphere leads to the somewhat objective and somewhat subjective placement of kids into different groups. Then these kids are monitored over a period of time before they're led to further specialization.

 

Ok, let's start with this , it's a hyperbolic discussion.

 

1) I am not saying that NFL combine makes a good choice for determining gymnast at an early age. Let's stop this and use that thing in between your ears. It's analogies and hyperbole, the point was that you can identify athletic ability early on and cultivate it. And more importantly that athletic ability is variable component you can not control it's genetic, but training you can control. I woudln't use an NFL combine to find the perfect golfer either by the way.

 

2) The NFL combine is so general in measuring and covers enough categories that you can make a relativistic comparison about a pwersons athletic prowress, the combine was originally brought up because it allowed an empirical analysis between the NFL and NBA, because it gave me some common points of comparison, ie they do some of the same maeasurements like "vert leaps". It's not to say that if I was going to create a sports program I would start by using the NFL combine, this is a thought experiment. Or that you would make this assessment after one viewing of a child. The NFL doesn't make it's selection of players based on the combine it's a tool for them, to confirm, and evaluate things they see on film. As you state the process is more subjective than that.

 

3) A child isn't benching 225lbs, obviously I'm not suggesting, grab a 7 year old and put him on bench press, the bottom line is you need to measure strength, it's not the excercise ... you guys can not see the forest from the trees. I'm not saying use the combine, I'm saying strength is a component of athletic ability, so measure it. here was one way to measure it. Moreover, because, kids mature at different rates it's much harder to tell ... however, you should try and evaluate potential

 

strength,

speed,

eye hand coordination and coordination, endurance

explosive power

mental toughness

quickness

endurance

 

and heck you'd probably add flexibility, potential growth, etc ...

 

there are whole host of things you'd include for a sports program and you would get very specific. However to gauge someones athletic ability those are the categories that should be measured. Finally, we have really veered away from the original discussion.

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"Ok, put them through the football combine. I don't see your point? I don't have a problem with that. My point is , even if wrestlers did this, they would not score as well as indivduals who became football players. Because wrestling does not get the "overall best athletes" for a variety of reasons , namely

1) wrestling is not more popular than the big 3 sports in the US 2) wrestling is not more lucrative than the big 3, it's not even remotely close"

 

 

 

When you are a college coach the athletes coming your way have already made their choices.

 

You have three wrestling recruits vying for one scholarship. You, as a wrestling coach, put them through the football combine test and award the scholarship to the highest scorer because he is the best athlete.

 

That is what you are saying. Correct?

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"Ok, put them through the football combine. I don't see your point? I don't have a problem with that. My point is , even if wrestlers did this, they would not score as well as indivduals who became football players. Because wrestling does not get the "overall best athletes" for a variety of reasons , namely

1) wrestling is not more popular than the big 3 sports in the US 2) wrestling is not more lucrative than the big 3, it's not even remotely close"

 

 

 

When you are a college coach the athletes coming your way have already made their choices.

 

You have three wrestling recruits vying for one scholarship. You, as a wrestling coach, put them through the football combine test and award the scholarship to the highest scorer because he is the best athlete.

 

That is what you are saying. Correct?

 

No, I'm saying that I don't know if JB although he is athletic by wrestling standards is athletic enough especially at his size to be playing D1 college football.

 

As to the question of who'd I would award the scholly, the question is which kid will be the best wrestler? And as already agreed output is a function of 2 components in simplistic terms athletic ability + training, if training is held constant meaning all 3 kids work equally as hard,drive, have shown to this point similar levels of success, then yes I'm taking the most athletic. As that is the 1 differentiator that can't be controlled. Although, a real life situation would be far more complicated with variables not being held constant as training would have great variance from coachability of the athlete, drive, work ethic, etc... are in fact not co nstants.

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We are just going to go round and round with this. You can never convince me that the football combine tests would be a useful measure of wrestling apptitude.

 

Interesting discussion though.

 

 

Maybe cause, I never tried to convince you the football combine was and is a useful measure of wrestling aptitude. I said the combine is a good measure of overall athleticism. Nor did I say it's a good measure of gymnastic aptitude or golf aptitude. I said it's a good measure of several athletic categories like strength, quickness, etc...

 

We've so far digressed from my original post this is where I agree the discussion has reached futility.

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It's much more of a gradual process where a general "gym class" type of atmosphere leads to the somewhat objective and somewhat subjective placement of kids into different groups. Then these kids are monitored over a period of time before they're led to further specialization.

 

I'm really interested in hearing more about this. I tried once to look for books on the subject and didn't find anything.

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We are just going to go round and round with this. You can never convince me that the football combine tests would be a useful measure of wrestling apptitude.

 

Interesting discussion though.

 

 

Maybe cause, I never tried to convince you the football combine was and is a useful measure of wrestling aptitude. I said the combine is a good measure of overall athleticism. Nor did I say it's a good measure of gymnastic aptitude or golf aptitude. I said it's a good measure of several athletic categories like strength, quickness, etc...

 

We've so far digressed from my original post this is where I agree the discussion has reached futility.

 

acadia:

You'll have to excuse LkwdSteve. He's pretty dense. He doesn't understand that the NFL combine is a measure of overall athleticism, which translates really well to performance in the NFL, where the best athletes perform, but would tell you almost nothing about potential performance in golf, gymnastics, wrestling, or almost any other sport, all of which are dominated by inferior athletes. I doubt he'll ever understand.

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Let's not forget that NFL scouts look at the combine results last when identifying draft picks, because game film (ie demonstrated talent at your position) is much more important. RG3 and Andrew Luck could have sat the combine out and still gone 1-2 in the draft. Come to think of it....did Luck participate? I can't even remember, because the results didn't matter.

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Let's not forget that NFL scouts look at the combine results last when identifying draft picks, because game film (ie demonstrated talent at your position) is much more important. RG3 and Andrew Luck could have sat the combine out and still gone 1-2 in the draft. Come to think of it....did Luck participate? I can't even remember, because the results didn't matter.

 

Yes, they don't matter, they only really can hurt you if your athletic ability is in question. I.E. Manti T'eo his game film shows him being slow "relatively" ... and his combine 40 time confirmed what they were suspecting on film when he ran a 4.82.

 

It dropped him from top 10 to late first round. But he's still considered 1st round material it's not like "athletic ability" determines your sport skill it's just the base that people can build off of. I don't know why everyone is getting caught up over my discussion of the combine, it wasn't even the point of my comments. I was just saying the athletic bar in football is pretty high, JB at his size would need to be a pretty ridiculous athlete to play college football, and he may or may not be that athletic maybe he is, unless we measured we wouldn't know. Man, this conversation has been blown way out of proportion.

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"acadia:

You'll have to excuse LkwdSteve. He's pretty dense. He doesn't understand that the NFL combine is a measure of overall athleticism, which translates really well to performance in the NFL, where the best athletes perform, but would tell you almost nothing about potential performance in golf, gymnastics, wrestling, or almost any other sport, all of which are dominated by inferior athletes. I doubt he'll ever understand."

 

Too true. :D

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Wow, just read this whole thread.

 

Lots of talking in circles.

 

Here's one man's opinion. JB is a freaking bad-ass. He wrecks people, his heart and athletic ability is off the charts. And I don't give a crap what sports you want to include, he is one of the best of the best, no question.

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Wow, just read this whole thread.

 

Lots of talking in circles.

 

Here's one man's opinion. JB is a freaking bad-ass. He wrecks people, his heart and athletic ability is off the charts. And I don't give a crap what sports you want to include, he is one of the best of the best, no question.

 

 

Here Here!

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