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Chael's Greco Discussion on FRL

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I really liked the point Chael made about NCAA's and the World Team Trials. We need to do something to get better wrestlers in the Greco WTT. 

Chael's point - all NCAA All Americans should qualify for the Greco WTT. NCAA's is a feeder program and none of these AA wrestlers compete Greco. 

I cannot think of a single instance where a wrestler wins NCAA's and decides they are using their qualification to go to Greco WTT instead of the Freestyle WTT. I bet it has never happened. Because of this, we should widen the net. This would bring more eyes to Greco and get more talent inside the USA Greco circuit. I think these All Americans would be surprised by how well they do, or at least be motivated by failure to keep going.

My proposal - Obviously, we do not want half the Greco bracket to be NCAA All Americans, but I propose that Greco gets four qualifying spots but the higher placing wrestler gets priority. If 2nd, 3rd, and 4th want to go but 5th does not, then the next highest placing wrestler that opts in gets in the tournament(6th-8th). We know the NCAA Champion will go to the Freestyle trials.

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I really liked the point Chael made about NCAA's and the World Team Trials. We need to do something to get better wrestlers in the Greco WTT. 

Chael's point - all NCAA All Americans should qualify for the Greco WTT. NCAA's is a feeder program and none of these AA wrestlers compete Greco. 

I cannot think of a single instance where a wrestler wins NCAA's and decides they are using their qualification to go to Greco WTT instead of the Freestyle WTT. I bet it has never happened. Because of this, we should widen the net. This would bring more eyes to Greco and get more talent inside the USA Greco circuit. I think these All Americans would be surprised by how well they do, or at least be motivated by failure to keep going.

My proposal - Obviously, we do not want half the Greco bracket to be NCAA All Americans, but I propose that Greco gets four qualifying spots but the higher placing wrestler gets priority. If 2nd, 3rd, and 4th want to go but 5th does not, then the next highest placing wrestler that opts in gets in the tournament(6th-8th). We know the NCAA Champion will go to the Freestyle trials.

They're not "worse athletes" and I hate this narrative.

To be good at folkstyle: LEGS ARE INVOLVED.

Freestyle is essentially the same attacks with a few scoring tweaks.

Greco is an entirely different sport.

Saying "better athletes would naturally pick up Greco post-college because of their athleticism". Is just so far off.

 

The reason we are bad in Greco is our late start and that's it.

 

Our main style of wrestling, which we do the majority of the year from 5 years old through college is FOLK, as we age into freestyle and Greco we do them a few months a year but ultimately our elite (measured in folkstyle accomplishments) lean towards freestyle (the style that resembles folk).....

 

*And note even with the similarities there's still a transitional period from college to senior level where our top folkstylers are still learning the ropes. *

 

If we wrestled only Greco/Freestyle since youth we'd obviously produce better competitors. But if we are going to keep folkstyle as the foundation of American athletes. Greco is nearly pointless.

 

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uncle chael made some decent points throughout the discussion...

but...

what has been proven time and time again is that just being a really good college wrestler does nothing for you in greco trials against those who are serious about greco domestically...

and just because an athlete is serious about greco domestically, it does not translate to international success for a variety of factors that uncle chael totally dismisses...

the one thing that he said that made me roll my eyes as hard as i have in a minute (excepting some of the takes by some of our more "esteemed" poster on this silly bbs) was that cox would make the greco team at two weights just by showing up... then he admits right after making that silly claim that cox really wasn't wrestling greco... his hips were out... blah blah blah...

try and practice the real style with an athlete that refuses to wrestle as the style and rules dictate... try and do anything with an athlete that just buries their head...

then have a "practice" where there is no ref penalizing that athlete who is not wrestling as the style dictates...

it was a take worthy for most greco discussions here...

and whatever he was going on about university trials was cringe worthy...

good college wrestlers beating mediocre wrestlers at anything is nothing to crow about...

what he did say that i totally agree with is that they all should be wrestling greco at whatever tourney they are at... there is absolutely no downside to it... new feels... new positions... new experiences can only help and maybe it opens the eyes of some of our better athletes...

instead they get told by most coaches to not do it...

fear is an awful thing to let control your life...

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Just now, LJB said:

uncle chael made some decent points throughout the discussion...

but...

what has been proven time and time again is that just being a really good college wrestler does nothing for you in greco trials against those who are serious about greco domestically...

 

I think my point stands with your sentiment in that if we can get AA's serious about Greco by providing them an avenue to the trials, then maybe we can get a deeper pool of talent domestically in Greco. Most NCAA AA's have zero chance of winning a match at Freestyle WTT and they know it. Maybe that is true in Greco too. 

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1 minute ago, juniorvarsity said:

I think my point stands with your sentiment in that if we can get AA's serious about Greco by providing them an avenue to the trials, then maybe we can get a deeper pool of talent domestically in Greco. Most NCAA AA's have zero chance of winning a match at Freestyle WTT and they know it. Maybe that is true in Greco too. 

i am of the opinion that every wrestler who has any aspirations of any success at any level above the Owasso Open should be wrestling greco...

there is literally no downside to it...

it can only help their wrestling even in the stall fest side...

if they then start to understand greco better, it only helps everyone involved... at the absolute worst they can be a better training partner... at the absolute best they discover why it is actually the best style and why and then they start to shift their individual focus towards it instead of becoming old and just bitching about how greco suks on a silly bbs...

but...

again...

fear...

 

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i am of the opinion that every wrestler who has any aspirations of any success at any level above the Owasso Open should be wrestling greco...
there is literally no downside to it...
it can only help their wrestling even in the stall fest side...
if they then start to understand greco better, it only helps everyone involved... at the absolute worst they can be a better training partner... at the absolute best they discover why it is actually the best style and why and then they start to shift their individual focus towards it instead of becoming old and just bitching about how greco suks on a silly bbs...
but...
again...
fear...
 
"Owasso Open"
#Respect

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While I agree that being an NCAA All-American doesn't mean you are going to walk into greco trials and win them without concentrating on that style, I do believe that our major problem outside of the late start, is that almost all of our World and Olympic reps are mediocre at best college wrestlers. To me, that means most of our reps are only in the spot because they chose to be there, when everyone else wouldn't. Which is obviously good for them, and I'm not knocking them for being the ones that show up. My main point, is that we never have our top name guys wrestling greco, which makes it hard for the youth to care about it. If im 10 years old, and Spencer Lee is wrestling greco, IM wrestling greco too. Also, if those top guys spent some time on greco, I would think they would undoubtedly unseat the guys that litter our current greco rosters. I don't think our current crop are good enough wrestlers to be the best in the world at greco. Lack of training partners or not, they are just not that good. We absolutely need more top end folk and freestyle guys to train greco. 

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While I agree that being an NCAA All-American doesn't mean you are going to walk into greco trials and win them without concentrating on that style, I do believe that our major problem outside of the late start, is that almost all of our World and Olympic reps are mediocre at best college wrestlers. To me, that means most of our reps are only in the spot because they chose to be there, when everyone else wouldn't. Which is obviously good for them, and I'm not knocking them for being the ones that show up. My main point, is that we never have our top name guys wrestling greco, which makes it hard for the youth to care about it. If im 10 years old, and Spencer Lee is wrestling greco, IM wrestling greco too. Also, if those top guys spent some time on greco, I would think they would undoubtedly unseat the guys that litter our current greco rosters. I don't think our current crop are good enough wrestlers to be the best in the world at greco. Lack of training partners or not, they are just not that good. We absolutely need more top end folk and freestyle guys to train greco. 


Love the idea..
And the Greco posters may disagree.

But our "top athletes" are athletes we respect in a leg attacking sport.
Jordan Burroughs isn't throwing people.
Johnny D wouldn't even hang with Demas (random name who's tried his hand in Greco) in a Greco match.
So on and so forth.

Yes it is the transitions from "folk to other" but you choose the "other" you've had the most success at.
It's like diving your entire life with bouts of synchronized diving.
You were a 4x state champion diver.
Diving paid for college.
Then post college you get the option of synchronized diving or the 200 Fly...
Yes you've been a pool.
yes you can swim.
yes the 200-Fly guys have nowhere near the Diving credential you have.
Buttttttttt your fame in diving doesn't change your swimming speed.


Horribly random example but 100% applicable to this situation.


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We need Greco guys to start when they are Greco kids and focus on being Greco greats...
It's the only way to compete against other people who have been doing it that often.
But there's no way to make that happen here

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our top guys in greco are our top guys because they prefer greco...

ryan mango was a 2X D1 AA in college... is that mediocre?

Fuenffinger was a state champ and 2X D2 champ... is that mediocre?

sancho chose greco early...

porter was a two time state placer in HS and won national championships in both styles at fargo... he chose greco

Hancock was a straight killer in HS, but, his personal life was tough and it limited his opportunities... had he been in a different environment he would have done extremely well in the stall fest in college... anyone who thinks he would not have been should not be paid attention...

kamal bey... he chose greco...FFS... does anyone not think he could have been a stall fest king had he wanted to be???

and please, before anyone mentions the obvious, coon had a great stall fest career and then gets the spot on the greco team based on him just being incredibly smart and incredibly big... most heavies just wrestle bad greco anyway in the stall fest...

this is all just off the top of my head...

the narrative that these guys are just doing greco because they are not good enough is incredibly ignorant... they preferred something and chose to put most of their focus into the best style instead of how to run backwards and dive out of bounds...

had they preferred something else their paths would have most definitely been different...

 

 

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I'm more invested in this than I should be.
But I can't get over the fact that we consider our "top/elite athletes" the guys with the most folkstyle credentials and then wonder why they don't all jump to Greco.
It's just a weird transition.

People were all about "Kamal Bey being an AA if he competed"
I can't prove my point but there's no way he'd podium...... He's been focused on Greco too long his game simply isn't suited for folk and his high flying offense works on domestic competition. (And we appreciate it and yes I understand he is an age level world champ) @LJB correct me if I'm wrong but being great at Greco requires more defense than anything.
My opinion is that Bey is all "undeveloped" offense with limited defense and against people who can medal at the Senior world level. They can simply keep him from scoring, and exploit his holes. But that's learned through 15 years of Wrestling only Greco against elite competition...
I'm b*tching now, but we are never gonna be tops in the world on Greco.

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the narrative that these guys are just doing greco because they are not good enough is incredibly ignorant... they preferred something and chose to put most of their focus into the best style instead of how to run backwards and dive out of bounds...
had they preferred something else their paths would have most definitely been different...
 
 


That's what I'm saying essentially.
But maybe I sh*t on the style a little more than I should.
Sh*t on it in saying it's hard to develop elite level habits on a leg attack style and also develop elite level habits in a completely different (not leg attacking) style.

I stand by, the talent level is fine, the experience and developmental path is not

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1 minute ago, spladle08 said:

I'm more invested in this than I should be.
But I can't get over the fact that we consider our "top/elite athletes" the guys with the most folkstyle credentials and then wonder why they don't all jump to Greco.
It's just a weird transition.

People were all about "Kamal Bey being an AA if he competed"
I can't prove my point but there's no way he'd podium...... He's been focused on Greco too long his game simply isn't suited for folk and his high flying offense works on domestic competition. (And we appreciate it and yes I understand he is an age level world champ) @LJB correct me if I'm wrong but being great at Greco requires more defense than anything.
My opinion is that Bey is all "undeveloped" offense with limited defense and against people who can medal at the Senior world level. They can simply keep him from scoring, and exploit his holes. But that's learned through 15 years of Wrestling only Greco against elite competition...
I'm b*tching now, but we are never gonna be tops in the world on Greco.

had kamal bey been in a different environment in his life he could have very easily been a D1 champ...

he wasn't...

he hated the stall fest...

he chose greco...

but, i do agree his style is not very conducive to long term international success even considering his junior world gold...

but, that is a personal issue and not an ability issue...

there are a metric fuk ton of those examples than any of us could cite in all walks of life...

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Just now, spladle08 said:

That's what I'm saying essentially.
But maybe I sh*t on the style a little more than I should.
Sh*t on it in saying it's hard to develop elite level habits on a leg attack style and also develop elite level habits in a completely different (not leg attacking) style.

I stand by, the talent level is fine, the experience and developmental path is not

 

100%...

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

I'm more invested in this than I should be.
But I can't get over the fact that we consider our "top/elite athletes" the guys with the most folkstyle credentials and then wonder why they don't all jump to Greco.
It's just a weird transition.

 

That's just a bad take by folks that don't know. 

As someone in the know once said, "It's like comparing apples to typewriters."

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That's just a bad take by folks that don't know. 
As someone in the know once said, "It's like comparing apples to typewriters."
Apples to typewriters is something I'm going to start saying more often. Well done

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5 hours ago, spladle08 said:

They're not "worse athletes" and I hate this narrative.

To be good at folkstyle: LEGS ARE INVOLVED.

Freestyle is essentially the same attacks with a few scoring tweaks.

Greco is an entirely different sport.

Saying "better athletes would naturally pick up Greco post-college because of their athleticism". Is just so far off.

 

The reason we are bad in Greco is our late start and that's it.

 

Our main style of wrestling, which we do the majority of the year from 5 years old through college is FOLK, as we age into freestyle and Greco we do them a few months a year but ultimately our elite (measured in folkstyle accomplishments) lean towards freestyle (the style that resembles folk).....

 

*And note even with the similarities there's still a transitional period from college to senior level where our top folkstylers are still learning the ropes. *

 

If we wrestled only Greco/Freestyle since youth we'd obviously produce better competitors. But if we are going to keep folkstyle as the foundation of American athletes. Greco is nearly pointless.

 

I don't think he is saying they're better athletes, I think he is saying they are the best all-around wrestlers -- irrespective of style -- and so there's a lot of excellent Greco wrestlers among NCAA All-Americans.

And I think that's pretty much irrefutable.  All you have to do is look at high school results, when guys are competing at junior nationals.  There's an enormous correlation between freestyle and Greco results.

Just look at our US freestyle team.  Snyder, Cox, Taylor, Dake... all these guys were Greco champs or runners up at Fargo.  They just chose to go freestyle.  If they went Greco they'd have excelled there too.

I'm not saying its identical.  Guys who rely exclusively on leg attacks may not fare as well, as guys whose attacks tend to center on upper body skills have the most potential.  But don't judge based only on your assessment of their style today.  I don't know many people who would describe Taylor, Cox or Snyder as "upper body guys" executing bunches of upper-body throws.  But they were still the best in the country at Greco in their youth. 

Or I'll pick a more recent Greco Junior Nationals year -- 2017.  Among the finalists:  NCAA folkstylers Rayvon Foley, Alex Thomsen, Peyton Robb, Anthony Artalona, Trent Hidlay, Jack Jessen, Cam Caffey, Jacob Warner, Anthony Cassioppi... not guys you think of as Greco guys now, but just a few years ago they were the best in the country at their weight.  There's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again if that's where they chose to focus.  Most of these guys aren't likely to make a freestyle World Team anytime soon, but that's where inertia will likely take them. 

There's a lot to be said for incentivizing these guys, and other NCAA AAs, to go Greco instead.

 

Edited by BAC

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I don't think he is saying they're better athletes, I think he is saying they are the best all-around wrestlers -- irrespective of style -- and so there's a lot of excellent potential Greco wrestlers among NCAA All-Americans.
And I think that's pretty much irrefutable.  All you have to do is look at high school results, when guys are competing at junior nationals.  There's an enormous correlation between freestyle and Greco results.
Just look at our US freestyle team.  Snyder, Cox, Taylor, Dake... all these guys were Greco champs or runners up at Fargo.  They just chose to go freestyle.  If they went Greco they'd excel there too.
I'm not saying its identical.  Guys whose attacks tend to center on upper body skills tend to do best at Greco, obviously.  But I don't know many people who would describe Taylor, Cox or Snyder as "upper body guys."  But they were still the best in the country at Greco in their youth.
Or I'll pick a more recent Greco Junior Nationals year -- 2017.  Among the finalists:  Rayvon Foley, Alex Thomsen, Peyton Robb, Anthony Artalona, Trent Hidlay, Jack Jessen, Cam Caffey, Jacob Warner, Anthony Cassioppi... not guys you think of as Greco guys now, but just a few years ago they were the best in the country at their weight.  There's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again if that's where they chose to focus.  Most of these guys aren't likely to make a freestyle World Team anytime soon, but that's where inertia will likely take them.  There's a lot to be said for incentivizing them to go Greco instead.
 
I'm drinking at 3pm so if I come across any type of way don't mind it..
As kids, when everyone is focused on freestyle/Greco/Folk, yes they were just as good as the guys who eventually chose to only focus on Greco.
But years of Greco Focus get you ahead of the pack.
No clue on Thielke or Lamont but I feel like their Greco heavy approach somehow solidifies my point.

Ok beer induced point: As kids, yes our college stars could be AAs at Fargo (I literally was 1 match away every year for 4 or 5 Fargo trips so it feels a little "booty" cause I know I sucked) however as we lean into college (folk) importance during our important years of development (you'll notice a significant drop from our cadet/junior world Greco medal average to our Seniors, with the same athletes competing at our trials) ugh this feels so poorly worded.

Point:
Yes our very best wrestlers could compete domestically as kids. However our domestic seniors are dedicated to the sport and would clearly beat everyone who doesn't compete in it.

If the argument is:
"with a similar amount of dedication for 3-4 years our Freestyle guys could win the spots"
sure, but it's debatable, and it's winning the spot over people we expect to win 0 matches. Maybe we get a few more wins but we are light-years away from finalist or anything like that .

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We did just fine winning a world team championship in Greco 13 years ago. Most of the guys on that team were folkstyle guys. Durclacher, Vering, hell Byers didn't even start Greco until he finished college football and joined the Army. The only 2 guys who were specialist Greco guys were Betterman and Lester. Ruiz was an AA for Nebraska. TCD wrestled in college, I think for Illinois State or something. So don't act like this is why we don't win at Greco. It's because we don't have the same kind of coaches who know what they're doing. Woogie might've won a few world medals but he's nowhere near the same level as Momir or Ivan as a coach. 

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