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Chael's Greco Discussion on FRL

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19 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

We did just fine winning a world team championship in Greco 13 years ago. Most of the guys on that team were folkstyle guys. Durclacher, Vering, hell Byers didn't even start Greco until he finished college football and joined the Army. The only 2 guys who were specialist Greco guys were Betterman and Lester. Ruiz was an AA for Nebraska. TCD wrestled in college, I think for Illinois State or something. So don't act like this is why we don't win at Greco. It's because we don't have the same kind of coaches who know what they're doing. Woogie might've won a few world medals but he's nowhere near the same level as Momir or Ivan as a coach. 

blaming the coaches is a child's take...

and using the one year we won a team title with no champions and only 3 medals as some sort of point in time to reference that we were doing ok up till then is just silly...

 

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5 hours ago, spladle08 said:

I'm more invested in this than I should be.
But I can't get over the fact that we consider our "top/elite athletes" the guys with the most folkstyle credentials and then wonder why they don't all jump to Greco.
It's just a weird transition.

People were all about "Kamal Bey being an AA if he competed"
I can't prove my point but there's no way he'd podium...... He's been focused on Greco too long his game simply isn't suited for folk and his high flying offense works on domestic competition. (And we appreciate it and yes I understand he is an age level world champ) @LJB correct me if I'm wrong but being great at Greco requires more defense than anything.
My opinion is that Bey is all "undeveloped" offense with limited defense and against people who can medal at the Senior world level. They can simply keep him from scoring, and exploit his holes. But that's learned through 15 years of Wrestling only Greco against elite competition...
I'm b*tching now, but we are never gonna be tops in the world on Greco.

Kamal Bey actually had a coach that knew about and pushed greco(and could “mostly” keep him under control, but that’s a whole separate issue)

The real problem is that there are very few coaches that know Greco and fewer opportunities to do it. Ignorance and lack of access.. not fear are the issue. 
 

I have a kid who joined as a sophomore and later in season. So first move he learned was a body lock. And double unders. Because that’s what we’re doing that day and we actually rep it. He was hooked and loves Greco. Hates attacking legs. Whether or not he goes full time will depend on whether or he both locks in and starts improving. The point being, if he joins any of other 5-6 hs he could have instead of mine. Even if he wrestled. He’d have never learned what Greco was. Not because the other coaches are “bad” but because they never wrestled or were even actually exposed to Greco. 

LJB. I get it’s probably annoying that not many kids want to be practice dummies for your kids. That’s not the same thing as people not joining “out of fear”

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Listening to the FRL episode now.  Chael asking and talking about how to get better DNA athletes to go Greco.  Tons of discussion.

The answer - it needs to be a better sport / product.  
…..

hmmm, Pyle is actually just now talking about this.  
 

It is a highly defensive, and very boring sport at the upper levels.  All about penalties and putting people down and trying to get A turn.  Too uninteresting.   
 

Don’t know how to fix it.  

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 @jp157 don't you worry about me and mine... we are doing just fine...

wanna know why?

we are not scared and don't make excuses...

perhaps one day you will get there...

i'm pulling for you little fella!!!!

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, nom said:

Listening to the FRL episode now.  Chael asking and talking about how to get better DNA athletes to go Greco.  Tons of discussion.

The answer - it needs to be a better sport / product.  
…..

hmmm, Pyle is actually just now talking about this.  
 

It is a highly defensive, and very boring sport at the upper levels.  All about penalties and putting people down and trying to get A turn.  Too uninteresting.   
 

Don’t know how to fix it.  

replace defensive with technical in your post and you begin the path to enlightenment...

there is nothing more boring that the stall fest, but, people seem to be ok with it...

conversely, greco is the more popular style world wide...

why do you think that is?

why do you think that the rest of the world does not view it as boring?

 

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

replace defensive with technical in your post and you begin the path to enlightenment...

there is nothing more boring that the stall fest, but, people seem to be ok with it...

conversely, greco is the more popular style world wide...

why do you think that is?

why do you think that the rest of the world does not view it as boring?

 

A hypothesis - their culture, both historically and as it relates to entertainment and sport, is different.  
 

I suggest that the key tenets of Greco, and how the sport unfolds, is in conflict with what US culture values and appreciates in sport.

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@jp157 love the account but not sold just yet.
A first year wrestler enjoying body locks while facing a college future that NEEDS leg work. Could make a great story but .... I'm. Tipsy. @LJB don't **** on NCAA Champion JP O'Conner
He loves folk and he's defending it to the best of his argumentive abilities ....
(Again I'm tipsy)

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48 minutes ago, LJB said:

blaming the coaches is a child's take...

and using the one year we won a team title with no champions and only 3 medals as some sort of point in time to reference that we were doing ok up till then is just silly...

 

Well we won 3 medals at the 2000 Olympics and I think 2 in 2004. So obviously we were doing something right. Oh yeah, we had Momir and Ivan coaching with another Olympic gold medalist, Steve Fraser. Once those coaches left things started to tank. Most of our top Greco guys, if not all of them, wrestled folkstyle coming up, if not in college then at least high school. We don't have good enough coaching talent who can develop our wrestlers. I've watched Woogie's practices and they're nothing like Momir would do. 

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our coaches are good at the national level... they understand greco... it is not rocket science...

now, i will never defend a typical coach at a high school knowing anything about real greco...

that hasn't changed in the last 20 years...

but, the main difference is 20 years ago a kid did not have the opportunity to "wrestle" the stall fest all summer...

they do now...

don't think for one second that is not a contributing factor in less kids being exposed to greco...

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51 minutes ago, nom said:

A hypothesis - their culture, both historically and as it relates to entertainment and sport, is different.  
 

I suggest that the key tenets of Greco, and how the sport unfolds, is in conflict with what US culture values and appreciates in sport.

bingo...

there is nothing wrong with greco...

it is this country being scared of it...

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1 hour ago, TripNSweep said:

Well we won 3 medals at the 2000 Olympics and I think 2 in 2004. So obviously we were doing something right. Oh yeah, we had Momir and Ivan coaching with another Olympic gold medalist, Steve Fraser. Once those coaches left things started to tank. Most of our top Greco guys, if not all of them, wrestled folkstyle coming up, if not in college then at least high school. We don't have good enough coaching talent who can develop our wrestlers. I've watched Woogie's practices and they're nothing like Momir would do. 

Ahad ran an entirely different practice...

Mohammed runs a different practice...

Mayabb runs a different practice...

bisek runs a different practice...

dominguez runs a different practice...

morris runs a different practice...

pack runs a different practice...

anderson damn sure runs a different practice...

it is just lazy to blame coaching...

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i will add to say i am sure ivanov runs an entirely different practice as well...

i just have not seen it personally...

but...

i have been in the opposite corner from ivanov and the end result was always same...

blaming the coaching is just lazy...

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

bingo...

there is nothing wrong with greco...

it is this country being scared of it...

It seems your main point here is that coaches and wrestlers are scared of it. What better way to face that fear than to have wrestlers in 20-30 college rooms across the country qualified for Greco WTT. If none of them opt in for their spot, then we know they are scared and you would be right. 

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8 hours ago, spladle08 said:


 

 


That's what I'm saying essentially.
But maybe I sh*t on the style a little more than I should.
Sh*t on it in saying it's hard to develop elite level habits on a leg attack style and also develop elite level habits in a completely different (not leg attacking) style.

I stand by, the talent level is fine, the experience and developmental path is not

 

We could force D1 coaches to put their athletes on a development path since they are qualified for WTT. We need Greco training at the top schools in the country. AA's qualified for Greco WTT is like a Trojan horse 

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I think many NCAA AA's could probably place in the depth we have right now.  I watched wtt in greco and I know I have teammates who could get up off the couch and be an instant contender.  10 years ago no way that happens.  I put up 11 on arguably the best 141lber of all time, and I was ranked maybe 5th or 6th.  I honestly think if half of the AA's showed up to trials, our team would make major improvements in a few years.  Guys coming out of NCAA's are capable of getting medals eventually.  We've done it before.

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2 hours ago, nom said:

Listening to the FRL episode now.  Chael asking and talking about how to get better DNA athletes to go Greco.  Tons of discussion.

The answer - it needs to be a better sport / product.  
…..

hmmm, Pyle is actually just now talking about this.  
 

It is a highly defensive, and very boring sport at the upper levels.  All about penalties and putting people down and trying to get A turn.  Too uninteresting.   
 

Don’t know how to fix it.  

Wrestling in general is considered boring by the general public because of no striking. 

Thats not the reason why GR lags behind,  it has all to do with Folk. Folk is juggernaut in the US with a massive  infrastructure, mass participation, College System, youth participation, money . And it happens to be very similar to Free style. Its just an inherent advantage, nothing in particular that Greco can do about that.  Even if Greco matches were all high scoring arm throws, suplexes and pins, the disadvantage would't go away. 

But the thing that doesn't get talked about is the US might win out in Greco despite relying on Folkstyle to supply it. A lot of the areas where Greco is highly practiced have become depopulated or have programs that are underfunded and in general not well  run anymore. The soviet union was far better at GR than current Russia (something that Freestyle people don't really consider thanks to caucus regions keeping up the level in their discipline).  Just massive talent pool alone  that Folk can supply even without the first choicers could give the US wins if Russia/ Cuba /Iran decline further (and they very well could). 

 

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18 minutes ago, olddirty said:

I think many NCAA AA's could probably place in the depth we have right now.  I watched wtt in greco and I know I have teammates who could get up off the couch and be an instant contender.  10 years ago no way that happens.  I put up 11 on arguably the best 141lber of all time, and I was ranked maybe 5th or 6th.  I honestly think if half of the AA's showed up to trials, our team would make major improvements in a few years.  Guys coming out of NCAA's are capable of getting medals eventually.  We've done it before.

That usually happens at super heavy or heavy. Where you can get large disparities in size, strength, and athleticism despite technically being in the same weight class. Be big and strong like Matt or have incredible conditioning with strength like Rulon. 

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49 minutes ago, juniorvarsity said:

It seems your main point here is that coaches and wrestlers are scared of it. What better way to face that fear than to have wrestlers in 20-30 college rooms across the country qualified for Greco WTT. If none of them opt in for their spot, then we know they are scared and you would be right. 

i am not against it... i just do not see it making a difference...

they can show up now and don't...

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39 minutes ago, olddirty said:

I think many NCAA AA's could probably place in the depth we have right now.  I watched wtt in greco and I know I have teammates who could get up off the couch and be an instant contender.  10 years ago no way that happens.  I put up 11 on arguably the best 141lber of all time, and I was ranked maybe 5th or 6th.  I honestly think if half of the AA's showed up to trials, our team would make major improvements in a few years.  Guys coming out of NCAA's are capable of getting medals eventually.  We've done it before.

of course some AAs coming out of college could place at nationals in greco... 

that is because our depth is awful...

not one would make a world/olympic team just showing up...

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21 hours ago, LJB said:

uncle chael made some decent points throughout the discussion...

but...

what has been proven time and time again is that just being a really good college wrestler does nothing for you in greco trials against those who are serious about greco domestically...

 

I think my point stands with your sentiment in that if we can get AA's serious about Greco by providing them an avenue to the trials, then maybe we can get a deeper pool of talent domestically in Greco. Most NCAA AA's have zero chance of winning a match at Freestyle WTT and they know it. Maybe that is true in Greco too. To be clear, I do not think if this were to be implemented that an AA would be on the team in the first year. I really do like the idea though. We need more domestic competition. I think this would help long term to just expand the participation in Greco.

For example, not one D1 program comes to mind when I think about Greco. Our former Greco team members do not have D1 coaching jobs. I think the best thing we can do for Greco is get it inside these college programs. The RTCs have helped freestyle tremendously. Which RTC do you associate Greco with? For me, none come to mind. 

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