No HWC at WTT?

[ShakaAloha 416]

10 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

ShakaAloha believes they should move on because they wrestle for Iowa. That's the extent of his reasoning.

Nothing against Iowa.  I'm a huge fan of Spencer.  I just don't think 25 year olds should be competing in NCAA Div. 1 against 17/18/19 year olds regardless of what school they compete for.  

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

Chad Beatty on Rokfin talking about it:

https://rokfin.com/stack/984/Chad-Beatty--HWC-updates

 

A couple of points he made:

1. At HWC the primary focus is on winning another NCAA title, so the focus is folkstyle.

2. They don't historically send college students to senior events.

3. He said Lugo's name, but thats about it. Regarding Lugo he said there is a lot that goes into the decision.

4. With Cassioppi and Wilson wrestling they have representation. This is good because its what the donors want.

[AHamilton 1,026]

2 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Nothing against Iowa.  I'm a huge fan of Spencer.  I just don't think 25 year olds should be competing in NCAA Div. 1 against 17/18/19 year olds regardless of what school they compete for.  

Yep... all the 17 year olds starting for Cornell and PSU. There are a ton of them.  

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

Yep... all the 17 year olds starting for Cornell and PSU. There are a ton of them.  

 

4 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Nothing against Iowa.  I'm a huge fan of Spencer.  I just don't think 25 year olds should be competing in NCAA Div. 1 against 17/18/19 year olds regardless of what school they compete for.  

Didn't Doogie Howser wrestle?

[LJB 2,093]

5 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Nothing against Iowa.  I'm a huge fan of Spencer.  I just don't think 25 year olds should be competing in NCAA Div. 1 against 17/18/19 year olds regardless of what school they compete for.  

 

2 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Yep... all the 17 year olds starting for Cornell and PSU. There are a ton of them.  

seriously... how many 17 year olds have ever started in D1?

[uncle bernard 1,112]

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

 

seriously... how many 17 year olds have ever started in D1?

never let the facts get in the way of the narrative

[AHamilton 1,026]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 

Didn't Doogie Howser wrestle?

Yeah.  I'm waiting for similar outrage when Michael Beard, Vito Arujau, and a host of other wrestle at advanced ages. 

Was Beard a 22 year old Freshman this past year, or was he only 21? Gets a Covid year... should be 25 or 26 when he finishes his career, unless he takes some sort of injury redshirt.

Bartlett will be a 21 year old Sophomore. Even if he never takes a redshirt, he will be 25 in his last year.

Vito graduated in 2017 and is now a sophomore in 2022.  If no further Olympic redshirts, he will graduate in 2024 and also be 24. If he takes another Olympic redshirt, we are looking at a 26 year old.  I wonder if Coach Koll will suggest that he is a loser who needs to get on with his life?

Micic has taken THREE Olympic redshirts!

Edited September 10, 2021 by AHamilton

[hammerlockthree 2,581]

4 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

The Brands have spoken publicly several times over the last couple years about adjusting their approach to season workload. Them holding guys out of duals is pretty strong evidence that they aren't working guys to the bone all season.

unless they are ducking people....

[uncle bernard 1,112]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Chad Beatty on Rokfin talking about it:

https://rokfin.com/stack/984/Chad-Beatty--HWC-updates

 

A couple of points he made:

1. At HWC the primary focus is on winning another NCAA title, so the focus is folkstyle.

2. They don't historically send college students to senior events.

3. He said Lugo's name, but thats about it. Regarding Lugo he said there is a lot that goes into the decision.

4. With Cassioppi and Wilson wrestling they have representation. This is good because its what the donors want.

Couple slight disagreements with your summary:

1. This isn't exactly what he said. He said one of the goals of the club is to also win an NCAA title and that the timing of the trials is bad for their current college guys because they want them to be healthy and fresh headed into the season.

2. He said this emphasizing that their club is very young, but immediately followed with they send a ton of guys to compete in their age group. Pretty Standard. Very few college wrestlers compete at the senior level, and they have had their top guys compete there recently (Spencer, Eierman, Cassioppi).

 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Couple slight disagreements with your summary:

1. This isn't exactly what he said. He said one of the goals of the club is to also win an NCAA title and that the timing of the trials is bad for their current college guys because they want them to be healthy and fresh headed into the season.

2. He said this emphasizing that their club is very young, but immediately followed with they send a ton of guys to compete in their age group. Pretty Standard. Very few college wrestlers compete at the senior level, and they have had their top guys compete there recently (Spencer, Eierman, Cassioppi).

 

I went back to listen again because I thought I got it right. We are both a little wrong as it turns out.

The actual quote is, "our goal and our focus with the club is to also win national titles and it took us a decade to win this last one. The timing of these trials ... is not great for our guys that are trying to focus on folkstyle wrestling. So I think our focus and our goal is to win another title. I don't think I have to be coy about that. We won it pretty handily last year and we have the same guys coming back this year. We want to be healthy. We want to be strong. We want to focus on the style that is present."

So, yes he used the word also once when he answered the question about WTT, but every other word in that reply was about folkstyle. He even talked four seperate times about focusing on folkstyle. So I think I am on stable ground taking that sole also with a grain of salt.

[uncle bernard 1,112]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I went back to listen again because I thought I got it right. We are both a little wrong as it turns out.

The actual quote is, "our goal and our focus with the club is to also win national titles and it took us a decade to win this last one. The timing of these trials ... is not great for our guys that are trying to focus on folkstyle wrestling. So I think our focus and our goal is to win another title. I don't think I have to be coy about that. We won it pretty handily last year and we have the same guys coming back this year. We want to be healthy. We want to be strong. We want to focus on the style that is present."

So, yes he used the word also once when he answered the question about WTT, but every other word in that reply was about folkstyle. He even talked four seperate times about focusing on folkstyle. So I think I am on stable ground taking that sole also with a grain of salt.

Yes, but he's talking about folkstyle specifically because of the timing of the trials. At no point does he say freestyle isn't an emphasis. He just said they don't want their college guys wrestling freestyle a month before the folkstyle season starts for training and health reasons.

And again, it's not like they've banned participation. 2 of their guys are wrestling at worlds in a month. They pretty clearly care about freestyle.

 

 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

3 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Yes, but he's talking about folkstyle specifically because of the timing of the trials. At no point does he say freestyle isn't an emphasis. He just said they don't want their college guys wrestling freestyle a month before the folkstyle season starts for training and health reasons.

And again, it's not like they've banned participation. 2 of their guys are wrestling at worlds in a month. They pretty clearly care about freestyle.

 

 

You are correct there are many things he did not say. In fact, there are infinite things he did not say. I chose to not focus on what he did not say. Instead I pointed out what he said four times.

I understand that there are some on here using words like banned. I am not one of them, so please do not imply that I am.

[Plasmodium 2,218]

Don't have to wrestle most of the season to compete in the post season.  If you have won 3 NCAA titles, what is to miss in the first semester?

 

[VakAttack 3,966]

Since Penn State is the direct comparison being made, people are going to have to show me the vast amount of history of Penn State collegiate wrestlers competing in off-season senior level events.  Outside of Olympic years, I don't remember them doing much of it at all, including guys like Taylor, Ruth, etc.  This year, given COVID, the Olympic qualifications were limited and without winning the NCAA tournament, guys would have had to make weight and compete within a week of competing at the NCAA tournament just to qualify to then make weight and compete again a week or so later to compete at the Olympic Team Trials.

[bnwtwg 996]

13 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Micic has taken THREE Olympic redshirts!

In Micic and only Micic's defense, he never seemed to care about folkstyle and it was only a means to an end [good workout partners and free education at top tier institutions]. He has finished 5th 2x, DNP, and TBD at worlds in a few weeks. At least he is following through...

[Lurker 2,033]

18 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

In Micic and only Micic's defense, he never seemed to care about folkstyle and it was only a means to an end [good workout partners and free education at top tier institutions]. He has finished 5th 2x, DNP, and TBD at worlds in a few weeks. At least he is following through...

But I….ME….I want Miccic wrestling in a UM singlet every time they take the mat. So that’s what he needs to be doing! What difference do his own personal goals and ambitions make?!

Edited September 10, 2021 by Lurker

[nhs67 1,953]

FWIW he is registered at 61 keggers for Worlds.

I am hoping we see he light to mat on fire, man.  Super stoked there.

Disappointed that Myles Amine is taking a break.  Curious as to why Malik is going 74 and not 70, though.  Is it where San Marino will only field Oly weights?

[Housebuye 2,417]

22 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Since Penn State is the direct comparison being made, people are going to have to show me the vast amount of history of Penn State collegiate wrestlers competing in off-season senior level events.  Outside of Olympic years, I don't remember them doing much of it at all, including guys like Taylor, Ruth, etc.  This year, given COVID, the Olympic qualifications were limited and without winning the NCAA tournament, guys would have had to make weight and compete within a week of competing at the NCAA tournament just to qualify to then make weight and compete again a week or so later to compete at the Olympic Team Trials.

it’s ok to admit when your team makes decisions you disagree with. Iowa is not doing a good job of supporting their team’s freestyle aspirations, no matter what the excuse. The fact is, Spencer, Eierman, Warner, Cassioppi, etc all had serious freestyle aspirations coming in, and most have hardly competed in freestyle since coming to Iowa.
 

Cass not showing up to junior trials is just not something most teams would do, given the situation he was in.

Lee wrestling 1 senior tournament but 80 folkstyle matches since coming to Iowa, when he was arguably our best freestyle prospect in decades, is not what other teams would do generally. 
  
 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:15 AM, VakAttack said:

Since Penn State is the direct comparison being made, people are going to have to show me the vast amount of history of Penn State collegiate wrestlers competing in off-season senior level events.  Outside of Olympic years, I don't remember them doing much of it at all, including guys like Taylor, Ruth, etc.  This year, given COVID, the Olympic qualifications were limited and without winning the NCAA tournament, guys would have had to make weight and compete within a week of competing at the NCAA tournament just to qualify to then make weight and compete again a week or so later to compete at the Olympic Team Trials.

You make an excellent point, but your answer also implies that the HWC is just about college wrestlers. My original question was broader than that. With just one wrestler enter in OTT and WTT combined, as a Hawkeye fan does that concern you? 

With the lose of Gillman to NLWC and the women's team and coach to ASU and the lack of post-grad athletes the trend has not been their friend. Is that concerning? Or is the answer, wait until next year when all of our college studs are freed from the responsibility and rigors of folkstyle?

My guess is, if you are being honest, it is some from column A and some from column B.

[AHamilton 1,026]

5 hours ago, Housebuye said:

it’s ok to admit when your team makes decisions you disagree with. Iowa is not doing a good job of supporting their team’s freestyle aspirations, no matter what the excuse. The fact is, Spencer, Eierman, Warner, Cassioppi, etc all had serious freestyle aspirations coming in, and most have hardly competed in freestyle since coming to Iowa.
 

Cass not showing up to junior trials is just not something most teams would do, given the situation he was in.

Lee wrestling 1 senior tournament but 80 folkstyle matches since coming to Iowa, when he was arguably our best freestyle prospect in decades, is not what other teams would do generally. 
  
 

Cass is on the U23 team...

[AHamilton 1,026]

53 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You make an excellent point, but your answer also implies that the HWC is just about college wrestlers. My original question was broader than that. With just one wrestler enter in OTT and WTT combined, as a Hawkeye fan does that concern you? 

With the lose of Gillman to NLWC and the women's team and coach to ASU and the lack of post-grad athletes the trend has not been their friend. Is that concerning? Or is the answer, wait until next year when all of our college studs are freed from the responsibility and rigors of folkstyle?

My guess is, if you are being honest, it is some from column A and some from column B.

You do understand why Gilman went to NLWC, right? It must be tough to be surpassed in your own room....

Edited September 11, 2021 by AHamilton

[Housebuye 2,417]

27 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Cass is on the U23 team...

And not on the junior team Bc he didn’t show up to trials. I’m sure there is a good reason, but Iowa does this consistently with their guys. It is either a crazy string of terrible luck or just not really caring about freestyle…

[uncle bernard 1,112]

 

 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,438]

33 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

You do understand why Gilman went to NLWC, right? It must be tough to be surpassed in your own room....

I am aware of the theories on this board, yes.

But any one reason is not the issue. It wasn't the same reason for the women or Snyder or Cox or any other senior wrestler who moved RTCs without choosing HWC. It is no one reason they had one entrant in the two world team qualifiers this year. People are so caught up in individual circumstances that they miss the forest for the trees.

[uncle bernard 1,112]

6 hours ago, Housebuye said:

it’s ok to admit when your team makes decisions you disagree with. Iowa is not doing a good job of supporting their team’s freestyle aspirations, no matter what the excuse. The fact is, Spencer, Eierman, Warner, Cassioppi, etc all had serious freestyle aspirations coming in, and most have hardly competed in freestyle since coming to Iowa.
 

Cass not showing up to junior trials is just not something most teams would do, given the situation he was in.

Lee wrestling 1 senior tournament but 80 folkstyle matches since coming to Iowa, when he was arguably our best freestyle prospect in decades, is not what other teams would do generally. 
  
 

This is just lazy.

Spencer sat out 1 freestyle season. He missed the rest with injury, with both of those injuries happening during the college postseason right before he would have had to wrestle at trials. Even so, he was registered to wrestle at a late summer international tournament in the summer of 2019, but pulled out a few days before (we now know this was likely due to an ACL setback). He started his senior career two years ago. It's not his fault covid cancelled everything and then he got hurt. If everything went by their plan/timeline, he'd be somewhere overseas right now getting ready to defend his Olympic title from a year ago. This idea that Spencer has been "held out" is ridiculous.

Actually, quite a few teams held their guys off of world teams that summer. Do you remember what happened the year prior with several guys on world teams getting off to sluggish starts? You should because Mekhi was one of them. Warner was on that team too and got off to a really slow start and spoke about how he wasn't ready to go at the beginning of the season because he was banged up from worlds. It was a big topic of conversation heading into that summer whether participation would be down because of it. Even so, they still sent Cass to U23's. 

To address the guys on your list:

Spencer: covered

Eierman: wrestled in 2019 senior nationals right after coming, 2020 was cancelled, wrestled at 2020 senior nationals, wrestled at 2021 senior nationals. The only tournament he didn't wrestle at was Last Chance, which was a week after NCAAs. If he had beaten Lee, he would have wrestled at trials.

Warner: junior world team, U23s

Cass: basically wrestled everywhere, juniors, u23s, senior nationals etc...

Not to mention the entire rest of their lineup has wrestled offseason freestyle as well: Desanto, Murin, Young, Marinelli, Kemerer, and all 3 potential 184s have wrestled freestyle multiple times since coming to Iowa.