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NIL Issues in Happy Valley?

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22 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

There is a big difference between what you call "responding to incentives" and what I call "bowing to pressure". 

yes, the difference is whether you like the result or not. 

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On 9/14/2021 at 2:08 PM, Billyhoyle said:

For the people doubting them being offered 6 figures, how do we know this isn’t just wealthy a PSU booster? I think many of these NIL deals will just be easier avenues for supporters of a team to directly pay athletes. Obviously Kellogg’s isn’t lining up to sign Nick Lee, but maybe James Smith, the Car Wash King of Happy Valley, is. 

This is honestly where a lot of athletes are going to get their NIL money, from wealthy alumni who own local businesses.  It's more so for olympic sports because those kids are not household names.  Gable is about as big a household name one is going to get these days in wrestling because he 1. won and Olympic gold and 2. Signed onto the WWE and made an appearance on WWE after winning it.  The biggest NCAA wrestlers might get NIL deals with wrestling companies for shoes (Asics, Nike) and maybe Cliff Keen but those deals are going to go to the very top of the top guys.  The rest are going to get some small time cash from local rabid alumni who are wrestling fans and own local businesses around the school.

Edited by StallWarning

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If you are making your UFC debut, I think you get a 3 fight contract with an $8k to show and an additional $8k to win. Dana White is required to offer his fighters three fights per year. So that means you are guaranteed $24k and could make $48k if you go undefeated and accept 3 fights.

It blows my mind that a college wrestler could make more than that. We all know the UFC underpays it's fighters, but the landscape for competitive pay with NIL is super interesting. Like is AJ Ferrari going to make more than a debuting UFC fighter? Obviously Gable Steveson is making more and this is the perfect example of why he should not go to the UFC right out of school.

Just comparing what the UFC pays its fighters to what some of the best guys in college wrestling make through NIL is a very interesting lens to look through for me as the whole NIL thing matures.

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1 minute ago, juniorvarsity said:

If you are making your UFC debut, I think you get a 3 fight contract with an $8k to show and an additional $8k to win. Dana White is required to offer his fighters three fights per year. So that means you are guaranteed $24k and could make $48k if you go undefeated and accept 3 fights.

It blows my mind that a college wrestler could make more than that. We all know the UFC underpays it's fighters, but the landscape for competitive pay with NIL is super interesting. Like is AJ Ferrari going to make more than a debuting UFC fighter? Obviously Gable Steveson is making more and this is the perfect example of why he should not go to the UFC right out of school.

Just comparing what the UFC pays its fighters to what some of the best guys in college wrestling make through NIL is a very interesting lens to look through for me as the whole NIL thing matures.

Gable is going the Lesnar route if he wants to eventually go to the UFC. He will build his brand while making a nice chunk of change, then demand a BIGGER amount to headline a UFC event. He's basically by-passing the whole beginner part of the UFC. I honestly don't think he ever goes to the UFC. 

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5 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

If you are making your UFC debut, I think you get a 3 fight contract with an $8k to show and an additional $8k to win. Dana White is required to offer his fighters three fights per year. So that means you are guaranteed $24k and could make $48k if you go undefeated and accept 3 fights.

Is this true?  Wow.  That’s so little money for the time, energy and cost (gym, trainers, health insurance, etc).  Add to that the risk.  I had no idea that the pay is so low.

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2 hours ago, nom said:

Is this true?  Wow.  That’s so little money for the time, energy and cost (gym, trainers, health insurance, etc).  Add to that the risk.  I had no idea that the pay is so low.

Did you see the woman get a performance bonus of $75,000 (I think() a month or so ago?  She collapsed like she won Powerball.  This is a "professional athlete" with a 6-2 record who said the money would be life altering.

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44 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Did you see the woman get a performance bonus of $75,000 (I think() a month or so ago?  She collapsed like she won Powerball.  This is a "professional athlete" with a 6-2 record who said the money would be life altering.

It is sad.  It's why I think we are seeing fewer elite wrestlers enter MMA than we have in the past.  For every Cormier, there's a Konrad, Rosholts, Pico, and Askren.  In terms of long term earnings, Taylor, Stieber, and Dake have found that wrestling is highly lucrative (Askren as well).  

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6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

It is sad.  It's why I think we are seeing fewer elite wrestlers enter MMA than we have in the past.  For every Cormier, there's a Konrad, Rosholts, Pico, and Askren.  In terms of long term earnings, Taylor, Stieber, and Dake have found that wrestling is highly lucrative (Askren as well).  

Maybe after like 25 years Askren will earn more in wrestling, but I’m pretty sure Askren has made far more money in MMA, especially if you count the Paul fight which I think you have to since the only reason he got it was because of his MMA success, and he stated that was the single biggest payday of his career.

I believe Pico’s contract was confidential but pretty sure it was large, so probably tough to argue that he could have earned more in wrestling.

Besides, are you trying to use those 2 in particular as examples of guys who didn’t have good MMA careers?  Askren had a very good MMA career, and Pico’s is far from over.

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On 9/18/2021 at 12:58 AM, StallWarning said:

This is honestly where a lot of athletes are going to get their NIL money, from wealthy alumni who own local businesses.  It's more so for olympic sports because those kids are not household names.  Gable is about as big a household name one is going to get these days in wrestling because he 1. won and Olympic gold and 2. Signed onto the WWE and made an appearance on WWE after winning it.  The biggest NCAA wrestlers might get NIL deals with wrestling companies for shoes (Asics, Nike) and maybe Cliff Keen but those deals are going to go to the very top of the top guys.  The rest are going to get some small time cash from local rabid alumni who are wrestling fans and own local businesses around the school.

Along these lines, then what is to stop some Ivy League alum, hedge fund guy from giving some blue chip wrestling recruit a six figure endorsement deal or internship to wrestle for UPenn or Cornell?

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25 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Maybe after like 25 years Askren will earn more in wrestling, but I’m pretty sure Askren has made far more money in MMA, especially if you count the Paul fight which I think you have to since the only reason he got it was because of his MMA success, and he stated that was the single biggest payday of his career.

I believe Pico’s contract was confidential but pretty sure it was large, so probably tough to argue that he could have earned more in wrestling.

Besides, are you trying to use those 2 in particular as examples of guys who didn’t have good MMA careers?  Askren had a very good MMA career, and Pico’s is far from over.

That's why I said long term. And also, I didn't consider the Paul fight-but it's not MMA.  Askren and Pico both performed far below expectations in MMA.  Pico was at a time considered the top prospect in all of MMA-he had world class wrestling and people claimed his boxing was just as good.  A half decade later and he is still in Bellator fighting unknown fighters.  He has also taken untold brain damage from the times he has been KOed.  Askren made a career beating fighters with zero wrestling ability, and the second he was challenged against well rounded fighters, he was done after 3 or 4 fights. My point is simply that for every success story like Cormier, there are those like Rosholt, Askren, Pico, etc who don't make it.  It's not an indictment on them-I don't think Konrad lost a fight, but just decided to not continue (a smart decision IMO). 

 

With NIL and RTCs, wrestling is now lucrative to the point where MMA shouldn't have the  same allure, unless you are well rounded enough to be the next Cormier. Even Cejudo, who is a great fighter, wasn't getting paid what he thought he deserved because he wasn't a PPV draw.  So it's also about the ability to draw in fans.   In other words, there are many  variables  at play-and when you have a clear path in wrestling like Taylor, Dake, or Stieber,  it's usually a poor decision  to go to MMA.  

With all that said, a guy like Nickal, who would have been a career #2 or #3 on the international ladder and likely not the #1 guy in his own RTC, probably made the right decision.  

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22 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Along these lines, then what is to stop some Ivy League alum, hedge fund guy from giving some blue chip wrestling recruit a six figure endorsement deal or internship to wrestle for UPenn or Cornell?

True. In many ways, NIL could become legalized bribery.

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

That's why I said long term. And also, I didn't consider the Paul fight-but it's not MMA.  Askren and Pico both performed far below expectations in MMA.  Pico was at a time considered the top prospect in all of MMA-he had world class wrestling and people claimed his boxing was just as good.  A half decade later and he is still in Bellator fighting unknown fighters.  He has also taken untold brain damage from the times he has been KOed.  Askren made a career beating fighters with zero wrestling ability, and the second he was challenged against well rounded fighters, he was done after 3 or 4 fights. My point is simply that for every success story like Cormier, there are those like Rosholt, Askren, Pico, etc who don't make it.  It's not an indictment on them-I don't think Konrad lost a fight, but just decided to not continue (a smart decision IMO). 

 

With NIL and RTCs, wrestling is now lucrative to the point where MMA shouldn't have the  same allure, unless you are well rounded enough to be the next Cormier. Even Cejudo, who is a great fighter, wasn't getting paid what he thought he deserved because he wasn't a PPV draw.  So it's also about the ability to draw in fans.   In other words, there are many  variables  at play-and when you have a clear path in wrestling like Taylor, Dake, or Stieber,  it's usually a poor decision  to go to MMA.  

With all that said, a guy like Nickal, who would have been a career #2 or #3 on the international ladder and likely not the #1 guy in his own RTC, probably made the right decision.  

Lol, Askren didn’t get to the UFC until he was 34 and still beat a former UFC champion.  He had a very successful MMA career, “he didn’t make it” my butt.

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1 minute ago, NJDan said:

True. In many ways, NIL could become legalized bribery.

If the alums want to pay them because they want them to wrestle for the team, it's more of a salary than a bribery.  These guys deserve a salary IMO if they can garner interest from an alum to give them that money.  Let the system work it out.  

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4 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

That's why I said long term. And also, I didn't consider the Paul fight-but it's not MMA.  Askren and Pico both performed far below expectations in MMA.  Pico was at a time considered the top prospect in all of MMA-he had world class wrestling and people claimed his boxing was just as good.  A half decade later and he is still in Bellator fighting unknown fighters.  He has also taken untold brain damage from the times he has been KOed.  Askren made a career beating fighters with zero wrestling ability, and the second he was challenged against well rounded fighters, he was done after 3 or 4 fights. My point is simply that for every success story like Cormier, there are those like Rosholt, Askren, Pico, etc who don't make it.  It's not an indictment on them-I don't think Konrad lost a fight, but just decided to not continue (a smart decision IMO). 

 

With NIL and RTCs, wrestling is now lucrative to the point where MMA shouldn't have the  same allure, unless you are well rounded enough to be the next Cormier. Even Cejudo, who is a great fighter, wasn't getting paid what he thought he deserved because he wasn't a PPV draw.  So it's also about the ability to draw in fans.   In other words, there are many  variables  at play-and when you have a clear path in wrestling like Taylor, Dake, or Stieber,  it's usually a poor decision  to go to MMA.  

With all that said, a guy like Nickal, who would have been a career #2 or #3 on the international ladder and likely not the #1 guy in his own RTC, probably made the right decision.  

I don't know if you are right or wrong b/c I don't know how much MMA guys make and I also don't know how much a guy like Dake or Taylor makes, to say nothing of guys a step or two doen the ladder. 

Does anyone know?

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Just now, flyingcement said:

If the alums want to pay them because they want them to wrestle for the team, it's more of a salary than a bribery.  These guys deserve a salary IMO if they can garner interest from an alum to give them that money.  Let the system work it out.  

Bribery is a loaded word, I realize. But NIL is NOT supposed to allow pay for actual athletic performance and is certainly not supposed to be used to induce recruits to go to a certain school. But how can you stop that from happening? Whether it's a local car dealer or a millionaire banker, they can ask a star athlete to appear in an ad and pay them whatever they feel like paying them. Ostensibly, it's for their NIL, but really it's to entice recruits or to reward outstanding performance. 

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4 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Lol, Askren didn’t get to the UFC until he was 34 and still beat a former UFC champion.  He had a very successful MMA career, “he didn’t make it” my butt.

If being in the UFC is "making it" then he made it.  Obviously he got further than the average person, but compared to his olympic teammates he was a huge bust.  I don't think UFC fans really give him credit for the Lawler win because he was getting destroyed and the stoppage was BS.  Kind of like how nobody really counts Jon Jones' one DQ loss. 

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1 minute ago, NJDan said:

Bribery is a loaded word, I realize. But NIL is NOT supposed to allow pay for actual athletic performance and is certainly not supposed to be used to induce recruits to go to a certain school. But how can you stop that from happening? Whether it's a local car dealer or a millionaire banker, they can ask a star athlete to appear in an ad and pay them whatever they feel like paying them. Ostensibly, it's for their NIL, but really it's to entice recruits or to reward outstanding performance. 

It's literally going on exactly like that in football.  A local car dealership gave the Oklahoma QB two free cars for having a good game.  It's impossible for the NCAA to do anything because the publicity they got for doing this (and the one instagram post announcing it) can be valued at more than the cost of the cars.  I have been strongly opposed to the NIL ruling for this exact reason-there is no longer amateur athletics. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

It's literally going on exactly like that in football.  A local car dealership gave the Oklahoma QB two free cars for having a good game.  It's impossible for the NCAA to do anything because the publicity they got for doing this (and the one instagram post announcing it) can be valued at more than the cost of the cars.  I have been strongly opposed to the NIL ruling for this exact reason-there is no longer amateur athletics. 

"A local car dealership gave the Oklahoma QB two free cars for having a good game." If they admitted as much-- and pretty dumb to admit it-- this seems like an obvious violation. But it's easy enough to hide it.

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

"A local car dealership gave the Oklahoma QB two free cars for having a good game." If they admitted as much-- and pretty dumb to admit it-- this seems like an obvious violation. But it's easy enough to hide it.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/look-oklahoma-qb-spencer-rattler-earns-two-new-cars-in-nil-deal/

""Being QB1 for one of the best football programs in the country is hard work but all the hard work and dedication does not go unnoticed.  Fowler Automotive wanted to find a way to keep our boy Spencer Rattler comfortable""

The NCAA doesn't care.  

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

It's literally going on exactly like that in football.  A local car dealership gave the Oklahoma QB two free cars for having a good game.  It's impossible for the NCAA to do anything because the publicity they got for doing this (and the one instagram post announcing it) can be valued at more than the cost of the cars.  I have been strongly opposed to the NIL ruling for this exact reason-there is no longer amateur athletics. 

They gave him a choice between two cars. And Sports Illustrated reported that it is the use of the cars he was given. Not the cars to own. That he got the use of one of them the week after one of many big games for him doesn't mean he got the use of one of them for that game alone. I get you have a viewpoint to support, but come on.

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25 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

They gave him a choice between two cars. And Sports Illustrated reported that it is the use of the cars he was given. Not the cars to own. That he got the use of one of them the week after one of many big games for him doesn't mean he got the use of one of them for that game alone. I get you have a viewpoint to support, but come on.

I linked my source in the post directly above yours. The Instagram post and article literally says he was given two vehicles. Take up your issue with CBS and the dealership, not me. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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19 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I linked my source in the post directly above yours. The Instagram post and article literally says he was given two vehicles. Take up your issue with CBS and the dealership, not me. 

The SI article literally says he wasn't. Giving him two cars just doesn't pass the sniff test. Letting him choose between two cars to use does. Perhaps try being critical of sources.

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