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4 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Are you really citing a Facebook comments section?

Absolutely.  When journalism can be biased propaganda on CNN, Fox News, etc., it is smart to listen to stories from real people.  There is snake oil on Facebook but at least you can quickly vet the person's profile to see if they are a real person or bot, etc. through their FB history, posts, friends, etc.  It is easy to flood this forum with real testimonies.  
 

Quote

Mattelyn Cassels Chatham
I am a Physical Therapist with almost 30 years’ experience. In the nursing home /rehab where I work, we have had a higher number of residents with the shot than without the shot to contract the delta variant. 100% of those cov-positive residents without the shot have experienced anywhere from light cold-like symptoms to pneumonia requiring either no hospitalization to 3 days, none requiring ICU, and are all now asymptotic. 100% of those cov-positive residents who took the shots have died in a manner similar to that which we saw during the original onset last year. We had no known delta variant in our building until the shots started. The residents had it first and have spread to a handful of employees who provide hands-on care. Our latest cov-positive is 57 years old who took the second shot, immediately had falls, fractures, surgeries, and strokes. Previously, patient lived at home alone and was totally independent.

 

Edited by jross
edit: from "is" to "can be" - there is an occasional well reported and objective article.

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Well... this conversation kinda went the way of the birds...

This has clearly become a case where it's now "my science is better than your science" type of situation.  Each side is in their corner, citing their "proof" and their "research" as to what's most "right".  

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.  The anti-vaccine folks have their POVs, and probably, some pretty good "truths", as well as "un-truths".  The pro-vaccine folks have their POVs, some pretty good "truths", as well as some "un-truths". 

Either way, we haven't reached herd immunity, but now have two herd mentalities, each opposing each other viciously, yet again. 

The question is... "Is this about winning" (the argument)?  If so, and the other side must abide or "obey", was something actually "won"?  Seems to me that there is a lot of sacrificing and a lot of coercion being spoken about, with very little irrefutable science on either side that dictates what is "right".  

Going back to "my science is better than your science" mantra.  This is how this manifests... 

  • Without 100% irrefutable proof, sides are taken based on what really boils down to a "belief" in the science
  • The "belief" in the science that one chooses to believe in relies on "faith"
  • Pretty much all religions are "faith"-based, meaning, the people also have to believe in this greater good or power that is bigger than them (which, is also now, the science they've chosen to align towards)
  • As such, since you now must have "faith" in your science... you now hold the science as a sort of religion
  • And that... my friends, are where we're at.  The science is the new religion, and we ALL know what happens when we elevate religion and pit them against each other...

 

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43 minutes ago, jross said:

Absolutely.  When journalism can be biased propaganda on CNN, Fox News, etc., it is smart to listen to stories from real people.  There is snake oil on Facebook but at least you can quickly vet the person's profile to see if they are a real person or bot, etc. through their FB history, posts, friends, etc.  It is easy to flood this forum with real testimonies.  
 

 

Facebook is a cesspool

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7 hours ago, jross said:

What makes this hard is CDC information saying one thing that is countered by the large number of breakthrough infections of fully vaccinated people.  My friends, family, and the country of Israel are direct evidence.

I am vaxxed.  I know two people personally that have died from covid (both in 70s).  I know multiple people that have lost their sense of smell (30-40s).  There are many cases of people getting seriously messed up from the vaccine itself, not reported, including death.  My friend has had covid twice and cannot safely get the vaccine in the near future due to the antibodies already in his body.  He is set to get fired from his government job w/o temporary exemption consideration given a new Biden mandate.  There is to much grey information for coaches and my friend to lose their job.

You are citing Project Veritas?  Project Veritas?  Wow.  Do you have any idea what that site is about, and its history?  The risk from the vaccine is many, many orders of magnitude less than the risk from the virus.  Anyone who actually cared about facts would already know this.  The number of people "getting seriously messed up" or dying due to the vaccine is vanishlingly small.  Look up what VAERS is really about, and what those numbers actually mean.  The number of people in the US who have actually died from the vaccine can be counted on one, or maybe two hands.

The reason there are a "large" number of breakthrough cases is because, well, there are a lot of vaccinated people and the virus is still widespread.  Do the math.

Your story about your friend who had COVID and cannot get vaccinated is just that:  a story.  Not true in any sense, since there is nothing about having been infected that prevents one from getting vaccinated.  Nothing.  Either someone is lying to your friend, your friend is lying to you, or you are lying to us.  In any case, you shouldn't be repeating nonsense that you can easily disprove with a few seconds of Internet searching (but skipping Project Veritas).

You need to step back and reassess your sources of "information."

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8 hours ago, AHamilton said:

I don't know.  I have co-workers who have said the same thing.  It doesn't mean you're a troll.  You just might be uneducated and/or listen to certain talking points.  A friend of mine is very educated.  Has a JD.  Also says the m-RNA vaccines are not vaccines.  Apparently some people think you need dead (or living) virus to officially make it a vaccine?  I'm pretty sure that isn't a qualification.

Meanwhile as I am wasting time on this site over the past couple hours, my daughter has informed me that her boyfriends father has succumbed to covid after a couple months of hospitalization.  An otherwise healthy 52 year old man. (and no, I'm not making this up)

Was he overweight?

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31 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Well... this conversation kinda went the way of the birds...

This has clearly become a case where it's now "my science is better than your science" type of situation.  Each side is in their corner, citing their "proof" and their "research" as to what's most "right".  

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.  The anti-vaccine folks have their POVs, and probably, some pretty good "truths", as well as "un-truths".  The pro-vaccine folks have their POVs, some pretty good "truths", as well as some "un-truths". 

Either way, we haven't reached herd immunity, but now have two herd mentalities, each opposing each other viciously, yet again. 

The question is... "Is this about winning" (the argument)?  If so, and the other side must abide or "obey", was something actually "won"?  Seems to me that there is a lot of sacrificing and a lot of coercion being spoken about, with very little irrefutable science on either side that dictates what is "right".  

Going back to "my science is better than your science" mantra.  This is how this manifests... 

  • Without 100% irrefutable proof, sides are taken based on what really boils down to a "belief" in the science
  • The "belief" in the science that one chooses to believe in relies on "faith"
  • Pretty much all religions are "faith"-based, meaning, the people also have to believe in this greater good or power that is bigger than them (which, is also now, the science they've chosen to align towards)
  • As such, since you now must have "faith" in your science... you now hold the science as a sort of religion
  • And that... my friends, are where we're at.  The science is the new religion, and we ALL know what happens when we elevate religion and pit them against each other...

 

My science tells me that Penn State won the 2021 NCAA championships. Don't believe me?  I can find a post from multiple people that says it's so. How certain can we be that the tape of the so-called NCAA championships that was broadcast by ESPN wasn't influenced by Big Corn? I have it on good authority that the video data they released is highly misleading.   Sure, your science may say that Iowa won, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

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5 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

As of last week, 1 out of every 500 people in the US has died from Covid.

I'd suggest reviewing your statistics carefully. The actual statistics are stunningly clear - they leave very little to argue.

The data supports getting the vaccine but data is often manipulated and once exposed, breaks trust.  There is evidence that the number of covid illness and related death cases is artificially bloated.  The CDC has misleading information still published like this gem: "Millions of people have received COVID-19 vaccines, and no long-term side effects have been detected." 

Why not push information in relatable terms?  1 out of 500 people you know will die.  You will significantly increase your survival rate by getting a vaccine.  July reports indicate 1 in 125K odds of Guillain-Barre-syndrome for J&J, blood clotting, myocarditis, etc. for taking the vaccine.  Make the decision to vaccinate; be like the CEO of each vaccine manufacturer, all living presidents of the U.S.A., congress, most physicians, and your state governors by getting vaccinated.  

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7 hours ago, ionel said:

Sure it is extremely rare but it still happens.  Is it ok if only one person out of 10k or 100k die from the vaccine?  What if that one person is someone you know?  My father ended up in the ER from his 2nd shot.  Also the guy next to him (shares a bathroom) at assisted care got they delta 6 mo after all in facility were vaccinated and one in the vacility died from delta.  That said everyone in my family and everyone I know has been vaccinated.  Data shows you can still get it and die if vaccinated but ~10x more likely if not.  :(

How about fewer than one in a million die from the vaccine?  Compare and contrast to the fact that about one in 500 have died of COVID in the US?  Why is this even being discussed?

As for your "what if" questions:  despite the long odds, someone typically wins the Lotto.  It just isn't going to be you, or anyone you know.

Why did your father end up in the ER, and why was that tied to the vaccine?

Your "~10x" number is way off.

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Absolutely.  When journalism can be biased propaganda on CNN, Fox News, etc., it is smart to listen to stories from real people.  There is snake oil on Facebook but at least you can quickly vet the person's profile to see if they are a real person or bot, etc. through their FB history, posts, friends, etc.  It is easy to flood this forum with real testimonies.  
 

 

Anyone who cites Project Veritas should not be listened to when it comes to the validity of news sources.  Period.

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48 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Well... this conversation kinda went the way of the birds...

This has clearly become a case where it's now "my science is better than your science" type of situation.  Each side is in their corner, citing their "proof" and their "research" as to what's most "right".  

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.  The anti-vaccine folks have their POVs, and probably, some pretty good "truths", as well as "un-truths".  The pro-vaccine folks have their POVs, some pretty good "truths", as well as some "un-truths". 

Either way, we haven't reached herd immunity, but now have two herd mentalities, each opposing each other viciously, yet again. 

The question is... "Is this about winning" (the argument)?  If so, and the other side must abide or "obey", was something actually "won"?  Seems to me that there is a lot of sacrificing and a lot of coercion being spoken about, with very little irrefutable science on either side that dictates what is "right".  

Going back to "my science is better than your science" mantra.  This is how this manifests... 

  • Without 100% irrefutable proof, sides are taken based on what really boils down to a "belief" in the science
  • The "belief" in the science that one chooses to believe in relies on "faith"
  • Pretty much all religions are "faith"-based, meaning, the people also have to believe in this greater good or power that is bigger than them (which, is also now, the science they've chosen to align towards)
  • As such, since you now must have "faith" in your science... you now hold the science as a sort of religion
  • And that... my friends, are where we're at.  The science is the new religion, and we ALL know what happens when we elevate religion and pit them against each other...

 

That's not where we are at.  The anti-vaccine herd has zero science on their side.  Zero.  Your argument is akin to discussing whether the Earth is flat.

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12 minutes ago, klehner said:

You are citing Project Veritas?  Project Veritas?  Wow.  Do you have any idea what that site is about, and its history?  

The reason there are a "large" number of breakthrough cases is because, well, there are a lot of vaccinated people and the virus is still widespread.  Do the math.

Your story about your friend who had COVID and cannot get vaccinated is just that:  a story.  Not true in any sense

Regardless of one's opinion on Project Veritas, they use video evidence that speaks for itself.  PV adds value... so does wiki leaks.

The problem with breakthrough cases is the messaging from our experts.  Lockdown for 2 weeks and we'll get over this.  Get vaccinated and you will be safe.  Now we need "protection from the unvaccinated" and booster "vaccinations."  It is probably that the majority is correct but they been wrong before and their marketing/messaging is bad.

My friend has been trustworthy since we met in elementary school.  He was sick for 6 days before going to the ER and being treated with monoclonal antibodies.  The treatment had him back to 85% in one day.  The FDA says he has to wait 90 days until that monoclonal antibody has gotten out of his system before he gets vaccinated.  I spoke with him yesterday to call BS on a text and make sure he wasn't falling on his sword.  

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22 minutes ago, klehner said:

How about fewer than one in a million die from the vaccine?  Compare and contrast to the fact that about one in 500 have died of COVID in the US?  Why is this even being discussed?

Your "~10x" number is way off.

The mandate does not fit the case even with artificial inflated data.  Also, the 10x number comes from an FDA warning in July for J&J.

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46 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

My science tells me that Penn State won the 2021 NCAA championships. Don't believe me?  I can find a post from multiple people that says it's so. How certain can we be that the tape of the so-called NCAA championships that was broadcast by ESPN wasn't influenced by Big Corn? I have it on good authority that the video data they released is highly misleading.   Sure, your science may say that Iowa won, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

My science tells me I have an enormous penis. My doctor says, medically speaking, it falls under the technical definition of a micro-penis. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, so let's just call it average size.

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13 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

My science tells me I have an enormous penis. My doctor says, medically speaking, it falls under the technical definition of a micro-penis. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, so let's just call it average size.

Your science probably tells you the hot English teacher took your virginity early in seventh grade and you got an A+  I'll go with the medical professional on this one.

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6 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

No, you didn't say anything - but you should have.

The death rate is now over 1 in every 500 people in the US and that is absolutely horrific and climbing.

Maybe you should pick up the pace and think about contributing to solving rather than denying.

Try comprehending while you read, I didn't deny anything was respond to a different issue.

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7 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

As of last week, 1 out of every 500 people in the US has died from Covid.

I'd suggest reviewing your statistics carefully. The actual statistics are stunningly clear - they leave very little to argue.

Context is important. 

 

Cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) are the leading cause of death globally, taking an estimated 17.9 million lives each year.

Heart Disease in the United States

  • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
  • One person dies every 36 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
  • About 655,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.2
  • Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

Edited by Dartsingle

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23 minutes ago, Dartsingle said:

Context is important. 

 

Cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) are the leading cause of death globally, taking an estimated 17.9 million lives each year.

Heart Disease in the United States

  • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
  • One person dies every 36 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
  • About 655,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.2
  • Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

Heart Disease is not a highly infectious disease with an R-naught of up to 3.5.

Context is important.

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1 hour ago, jross said:

Absolutely.  When journalism can be biased propaganda on CNN, Fox News, etc., it is smart to listen to stories from real people.  There is snake oil on Facebook but at least you can quickly vet the person's profile to see if they are a real person or bot, etc. through their FB history, posts, friends, etc.  It is easy to flood this forum with real testimonies.  
 

Mattelyn Cassels Chatham
I am a Physical Therapist with almost 30 years’ experience. In the nursing home /rehab where I work, we have had a higher number of residents with the shot than without the shot to contract the delta variant. 100% of those cov-positive residents without the shot have experienced anywhere from light cold-like symptoms to pneumonia requiring either no hospitalization to 3 days, none requiring ICU, and are all now asymptotic. 100% of those cov-positive residents who took the shots have died in a manner similar to that which we saw during the original onset last year. We had no known delta variant in our building until the shots started. The residents had it first and have spread to a handful of employees who provide hands-on care. Our latest cov-positive is 57 years old who took the second shot, immediately had falls, fractures, surgeries, and strokes. Previously, patient lived at home alone and was totally independent.

Sorry but this lady doesn't seem very smart.

If she's referring to a nursing home, the residents are probably 90%+ vaccinated, so a "higher number of residents with the shot than without the shot getting the Delta variant" means nothing in terms of the vaccine effectiveness, and the "100% without the shot" is probably a small sample.    Besides, is she saying 100% of the vaccinated residents died of covid?  C'mon man, aren't you a numbers guy?

Also, nursing home residents had started getting vaccinated in like January, and I don't think the Delta variant got to the US until like May.   So of course the vaccinations would have started before Delta.    Also seem like it's pure speculation that "the residents had it first," most of what I've seen on nursing homes indicates it's often the staff that bring it in.    In terms of mandates, nursing homes are probably literally the one place where there should no question be a vaccine mandate for employees.

 

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14 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Religious exemptions for the Amish or somebody like Tom Ryan might be approved.  It's difficult to argue for a religious exemption when you have had every other vaccine already.  

The idea that there should be a religious exemption to a vaccine requirement is itself absurd. It’s a freaking pandemic. If I have the Black Plague, and my God tells me I have a divine obligation to spew my disease and kill half the world’s population, can I avoid quarantine and any vaccine too? Religious freedom does not include a right to endanger others.

Edited by BAC

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30 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Sorry but this lady doesn't seem very smart.

If she's referring to a nursing home, the residents are probably 90%+ vaccinated, so a "higher number of residents with the shot than without the shot getting the Delta variant" means nothing in terms of the vaccine effectiveness, and the "100% without the shot" is probably a small sample.    Besides, is she saying 100% of the vaccinated residents died of covid?  C'mon man, aren't you a numbers guy?

Also, nursing home residents had started getting vaccinated in like January, and I don't think the Delta variant got to the US until like May.   So of course the vaccinations would have started before Delta.    Also seem like it's pure speculation that "the residents had it first," most of what I've seen on nursing homes indicates it's often the staff that bring it in.    In terms of mandates, nursing homes are probably literally the one place where there should no question be a vaccine mandate for employees.

 

Critical thinking (real critical thing not conspiracy theories ) is lacking by some on here.

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

My science tells me that Penn State won the 2021 NCAA championships. Don't believe me?  I can find a post from multiple people that says it's so. How certain can we be that the tape of the so-called NCAA championships that was broadcast by ESPN wasn't influenced by Big Corn? I have it on good authority that the video data they released is highly misleading.   Sure, your science may say that Iowa won, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

Conflation with absurdity proves nothing, but... ok.  

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36 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Sorry but this lady doesn't seem very smart.

If she's referring to a nursing home, the residents are probably 90%+ vaccinated, so a "higher number of residents with the shot than without the shot getting the Delta variant" means nothing in terms of the vaccine effectiveness, and the "100% without the shot" is probably a small sample.    Besides, is she saying 100% of the vaccinated residents died of covid?  C'mon man, aren't you a numbers guy?

Also, nursing home residents had started getting vaccinated in like January, and I don't think the Delta variant got to the US until like May.   So of course the vaccinations would have started before Delta.    Also seem like it's pure speculation that "the residents had it first," most of what I've seen on nursing homes indicates it's often the staff that bring it in.    In terms of mandates, nursing homes are probably literally the one place where there should no question be a vaccine mandate for employees.

 

If you work in a nursing home, please get vaccinated.

Thank you

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