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2 hours ago, klehner said:

That's not where we are at.  The anti-vaccine herd has zero science on their side.  Zero.  Your argument is akin to discussing whether the Earth is flat.

It's not... as those that are anti-vaccine ARE claiming their science.  I'm not taking sides in this fight.  I have my vaccination.  It affects me not.  I'm commenting from the outside looking in.  They claim science supports their respective argument, and I'm just commentating on that fact that this IS where we are.  To not acknowledge that they are claiming science (i.e. Ivermectin treatment, etc.), then whose argument is akin to flat-earther?

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10 hours ago, jross said:

What makes this hard is CDC information saying one thing that is countered by the large number of breakthrough infections of fully vaccinated people.  My friends, family, and the country of Israel are direct evidence.

I am vaxxed.  I know two people personally that have died from covid (both in 70s).  I know multiple people that have lost their sense of smell (30-40s).  There are many cases of people getting seriously messed up from the vaccine itself, not reported, including death.  My friend has had covid twice and cannot safely get the vaccine in the near future due to the antibodies already in his body.  He is set to get fired from his government job w/o temporary exemption consideration given a new Biden mandate.  There is to much grey information for coaches and my friend to lose their job.

There is nothing “grey” about the fact that the vaccine enormously reduces the spread of the virus. There mere existence of breakthrough infections does not change this fact. There is nothing even remotely ambiguous about this.

Your friend is an idiot. There is not a shred of evidence that the vaccine is less safe if you already had covid. To the contrary it improves protection. Send him this link:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

The coaches here are idiots too. Even if they end up getting the vaccine at the last minute they should probably still be fired for sheer stupidity, and for hurting the stability of the team and causing the transfer of their best recruits. 

 

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2 hours ago, klehner said:

That's not where we are at.  The anti-vaccine herd has zero science on their side.  Zero.  Your argument is akin to discussing whether the Earth is flat.

The other day my daughter told me 5+5=8, and I corrected her saying 5+5=10. But then I reflected on the wisdom of this thread and compromised with her that 5+5=9. The truth is always in the middle.

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7 minutes ago, BAC said:

Your friend is an idiot. There is not a shred of evidence that the vaccine is less safe if you already had covid. To the contrary it improves protection. Send him this link:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

Q: Can I still get the COVID-19 vaccine if I receive monoclonal antibodies?
A: Yes, but you should wait 90 days after monoclonal antibody treatment to get the vaccine as a precautionary measure, as the antibody treatment may interfere with vaccine-induced immune responses.

My friend was recently sick for 6 days before going to the ER and being effectively treated with monoclonal antibodies.  By the time it is appropriate for him to get vaccinated, he will be terminated from government employment.

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2 minutes ago, jross said:

Q: Can I still get the COVID-19 vaccine if I receive monoclonal antibodies?
A: Yes, but you should wait 90 days after monoclonal antibody treatment to get the vaccine as a precautionary measure, as the antibody treatment may interfere with vaccine-induced immune responses.

My friend was recently sick for 6 days before going to the ER and being effectively treated with monoclonal antibodies.  By the time it is appropriate for him to get vaccinated, he will be terminated from government employment.

Serious question, did your friend have opportunities to be vaccinated before he got sick?

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Just now, Lurker said:

Serious question, did your friend have opportunities to be vaccinated before he got sick?

Yes.  His entire family got covid before and no one showed symptoms.  He believed his antibodies would keep him from getting sick again this soon.  This second time was a bigger deal and only he was affected.  He still would rather not get the vaccine and it is only the threat of security (job loss) that would have him get it now.  If he had no family responsibility, he would not get it.  

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28 minutes ago, BAC said:

The coaches here are idiots too. Even if they end up getting the vaccine at the last minute they should probably still be fired for sheer stupidity, and for hurting the stability of the team and causing the transfer of their best recruits. 

Counterpoint: our government officials should be fired for sheer stupidity, and for hurting the economic stability of the country and causing the transfer of more wealth to the top %. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Heart Disease is not a highly infectious disease with an R-naught of up to 3.5.

Context is important.

Correct. It is primarily related to life-style choices - which really tells you how concerned people are with their 'health.'  Obesity rates have skyrocketed over the pandemic - yet people like you are preaching that getting the vaccine equates to caring about ones health and the health of others...but not a peep about how obesity and lifestyle choices have a direct affect on covid outcomes/deaths.  But then again, in the fast-food world we live in...why not just order up a vaccine and call yourself healthy.  I mean that's much easier, right.  

My point of posting the heart disease statistics (1 in every 4 deaths) is to show how deadly heart disease is (which I would argue is a pandemic in plain sight); and also point out that I've never seen the urgency by our leaders, governments, academic institutions, etc.  to promote immediate changes in eating, exercising, mental health, and wellness.  Nope....the McDonald's drive thru is as profitable as ever ...and get the vax and you can even get a few free donuts.  

Laughable.  

Edited by Dartsingle

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5 minutes ago, Dartsingle said:

Correct. It is primarily related to life-style choices - which really tells you how concerned people are with their 'health.'  Obesity rates have skyrocketed over the pandemic - yet people like you are preaching that getting the vaccine equates to caring about ones health and the health of others...but not a peep about how obesity and lifestyle choices have a direct affect on covid outcomes/deaths.  But then again, in the fast-food world we live in...why not just order up a vaccine and call yourself healthy.  I mean that's much easier, right.  

My point of posting the heart disease statistics (1 in every 4 deaths) is to show how deadly heart disease is (which I would argue is a pandemic in plain sight); and also point out that I've never seen the urgency by our leaders, governments, academic institutions, etc.  to promote immediate changes in eating, exercising, mental health, and wellness.  Nope....the McDonald's drive thru is as profitable as ever ...and get the vax and you can even get a few free donuts.  

Laughable.  

Wait.....people like me are preaching what??  You'll have to go dig that up for me because I don't recall do any such preaching.  I'll wait for you to find that for me.

 

My point was that using a disease,  that is not at all infectious, and comparing it to a disease that is highly infectious is pointless.  Your points about obesity being a pandemic and we do more to enhance that pandemic than to defeat it....I completely agree with.  But doesn't change the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with infectious disease, and trying to make a comparison between the two is asinine....much like your "people like you are preaching" comment toward me.  For the record, and to show how asinine your comment is, I did get the vaccine, but I got it late in the game.  Why?  Well, one because I take very good care of my health, and don't feel I am as vulnerable as others.  Two, because I wanted to let the people who are more vulnerable get in line before me.  I seriously considered not getting it at all, and I watched and I read, and I realized the impact vaccinated population has on erradicating the virus, and how these continue to mutate to infect more and more until we do get it erradicated.  So I got it so that we could get through this thing, not because I personally was worrying about dying.  Throughout this whole thing my main priority has been others.....so you may want to take that 'argument' somewhere else.  It doesn't fly here. 

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17 minutes ago, Dartsingle said:

Correct. It is primarily related to life-style choices - which really tells you how concerned people are with their 'health.'  Obesity rates have skyrocketed over the pandemic - yet people like you are preaching that getting the vaccine equates to caring about ones health and the health of others...but not a peep about how obesity and lifestyle choices have a direct affect on covid outcomes/deaths.  But then again, in the fast-food world we live in...why not just order up a vaccine and call yourself healthy.  I mean that's much easier, right.  

My point of posting the heart disease statistics (1 in every 4 deaths) is to show how deadly heart disease is (which I would argue is a pandemic in plain sight); and also point out that I've never seen the urgency by our leaders, governments, academic institutions, etc.  to promote immediate changes in eating, exercising, mental health, and wellness.  Nope....the McDonald's drive thru is as profitable as ever ...and get the vax and you can even get a few free donuts.  

Laughable.  

THIS!!

But hey...it is way more fun/easy to just listen to the stupid freaking news for my "facts" than think about this thing holistically and critically.  The data or "facts" clearly indicate that this is a deadly virus for a small minority demographic, but no one wants to address that as it is again way "easier" to just paint the the whole picture with one HUGE broad stroke, because that is what is shoved down everyone's throats by the dishonest media and idiot politicians.  Not to mention it is so much "easier" to blame politically one side or the other...ex. the dems got blamed first for discouraging the vaccine when trump was in office, and now the repubs are being blamed for discouraging the vaccine because biden is pushing it.  <eye roll>  Instead why are we not blaming the person who listens to the news, or a politician to decide on how to deal with their health and/or freedoms???  

I personally like to make my daily decision by coming on a wrestling message board and listen to people claiming to be "smart" who spew complete non-sense and think their way of thinking is the only way.   

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3 hours ago, jross said:

Regardless of one's opinion on Project Veritas, they use video evidence that speaks for itself.  PV adds value... so does wiki leaks.

The problem with breakthrough cases is the messaging from our experts.  Lockdown for 2 weeks and we'll get over this.  Get vaccinated and you will be safe.  Now we need "protection from the unvaccinated" and booster "vaccinations."  It is probably that the majority is correct but they been wrong before and their marketing/messaging is bad.

My friend has been trustworthy since we met in elementary school.  He was sick for 6 days before going to the ER and being treated with monoclonal antibodies.  The treatment had him back to 85% in one day.  The FDA says he has to wait 90 days until that monoclonal antibody has gotten out of his system before he gets vaccinated.  I spoke with him yesterday to call BS on a text and make sure he wasn't falling on his sword.  

Well, heck.  Your friend's need to wait has nothing to do with his being infected, as you said, does it?  So more like it was you who was lying to us.

PV has no value whatsoever.  They lie so much that *nothing* they say can be trusted.  Actually, PV does have value:  it points out those whose critical thinking skills are lacking.

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2 hours ago, Dartsingle said:

Context is important. 

 

Cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) are the leading cause of death globally, taking an estimated 17.9 million lives each year.

Heart Disease in the United States

  • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
  • One person dies every 36 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
  • About 655,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.2
  • Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

Is there a point you are trying to make here?  What does CVD have to do with COVID?  Do heart attacks overwhelm hospitals?  Do health care workers catch CVD from patients?

What am I missing?

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9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Wait.....people like me are preaching what??  You'll have to go dig that up for me because I don't recall do any such preaching.  I'll wait for you to find that for me.

 

My point was that using a disease,  that is not at all infectious, and comparing it to a disease that is highly infectious is pointless.  Your points about obesity being a pandemic and we do more to enhance that pandemic than to defeat it....I completely agree with.  But doesn't change the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with infectious disease, and trying to make a comparison between the two is asinine....much like your "people like you are preaching" comment toward me.  For the record, and to show how asinine your comment is, I did get the vaccine, but I got it late in the game.  Why?  Well, one because I take very good care of my health, and don't feel I am as vulnerable as others.  Two, because I wanted to let the people who are more vulnerable get in line before me.  I seriously considered not getting it at all, and I watched and I read, and I realized the impact vaccinated population has on erradicating the virus, and how these continue to mutate to infect more and more until we do get it erradicated.  So I got it so that we could get through this thing, not because I personally was worrying about dying.  Throughout this whole thing my main priority has been others.....so you may want to take that 'argument' somewhere else.  It doesn't fly here. 

I disagree that it is an asinine comparison...a death is a death is it not regardless if I "caught it" from someone else, is it not??  And his point is not comparing the two from a disease standpoint but rather perspective.  If we are so up in arms about so many people dying, there are a lot of things a lot more people die of that is absolutely preventable as well...including obesity and heart disease (obviously not 100% preventable for those that will nit pick and want to argue).

Anyway, if one gets vaccinated, what is there to worry about?  I don't care what others do after I got mine.  And if someone choses not to get vaccinated, that is on them.  Just like it is on me if I choose to eat a big mac versus a salad, get heart disease and diabetes, and take up a bed in the ICU because of a massive heart attack.

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

It's not... as those that are anti-vaccine ARE claiming their science.  I'm not taking sides in this fight.  I have my vaccination.  It affects me not.  I'm commenting from the outside looking in.  They claim science supports their respective argument, and I'm just commentating on that fact that this IS where we are.  To not acknowledge that they are claiming science (i.e. Ivermectin treatment, etc.), then whose argument is akin to flat-earther?

Because there is no science behind the anti-vaccination arguments, just as there is no science behind the flat Earth arguments.  Claim all they want, they aren't using science.

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2 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I disagree that it is an asinine comparison...a death is a death is it not regardless if I "caught it" from someone else, is it not??  And his point is not comparing the two from a disease standpoint but rather perspective.  If we are so up in arms about so many people dying, there are a lot of things a lot more people die of that is absolutely preventable as well...including obesity and heart disease (obviously not 100% preventable for those that will nit pick and want to argue).

Anyway, if one gets vaccinated, what is there to worry about?  I don't care what others do after I got mine.  And if someone choses not to get vaccinated, that is on them.  Just like it is on me if I choose to eat a big mac versus a salad, get heart disease and diabetes, and take up a bed in the ICU because of a massive heart attack.

Not a lot of things.  2 things.   Heart disease and cancer.   That's it.  Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 and will be again in 2021.

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Not a lot of things.  2 things.   Heart disease and cancer.   That's it.  Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020 and will be again in 2021.

JUST Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020???  Or does that not matter that the majority of deaths, if not all, had underlying issues??  Again...my point is perspective and the need to look at this holistically not just in terms of it being emotional because death sucks...bad!

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1 minute ago, dman115 said:

I disagree that it is an asinine comparison...a death is a death is it not regardless if I "caught it" from someone else, is it not??  And his point is not comparing the two from a disease standpoint but rather perspective.  If we are so up in arms about so many people dying, there are a lot of things a lot more people die of that is absolutely preventable as well...including obesity and heart disease (obviously not 100% preventable for those that will nit pick and want to argue).

Anyway, if one gets vaccinated, what is there to worry about?  I don't care what others do after I got mine.  And if someone choses not to get vaccinated, that is on them.  Just like it is on me if I choose to eat a big mac versus a salad, get heart disease and diabetes, and take up a bed in the ICU because of a massive heart attack.

agree to disagree.  If one can't see a huge difference between between you and I sitting down for dinner and me being obese, and you and I sitting down for dinner and me being covid positive......I don't think we can really take this much further.  And I'm not getting into anymore long drawn out stuff about covid.  I've had enough of this damn thing.

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10 minutes ago, WasteManagement said:

We've gotten into territory that's veered off of its relevance to wrestling. Figure it out or the thread will be locked up. These are conversations you can have every other place on the web with one another. 

I think its actually an extremely relevant topic to college wrestling, which has special vulnerability to pandemic risks because of the nature of the combat sport in training and competition.   

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Just now, Elevator said:

I think its actually an extremely relevant topic to college wrestling, which has special vulnerability to pandemic risks because of the nature of the combat sport in training and competition.   

Then let's everyone act like it. 

 

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I support the two coaches in whatever their decision is and for whatever reason they have...it is still a free country and with freedom comes differences in thoughts and opinions, which we are slowly becoming less and less okay with as a country...which should scare everyone...anyway, good luck wherever those two land as they are solid coaches.

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