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6 hours ago, jross said:

The CDC published there were no long term vaccine effects when the people in real life are seeing vaccine effects.  People are being forced into decisions where they do not believe the cost is worth the benefit.  People believe they are not at risk and are being coerced into taking an experimental vaxx that could make things worse than if they took no action at all.

This post, the fake data it references and purports to summarize, and its flawed rationale and conclusions is a huge part of the problem in why we have not beaten the virus in the U.S. and solved 99% of the problem for wrestling rooms and programs.   Smart and well-meaning people who think they know better than the incredible awesome community of scientists and medical experts that have come to the rescue.  These internet vaccine questioners  - true beleives that they have better judgment in evaluatuing the safety and effectiveness than the FDA, CDC and 99.99% of the medical doctors - decide to share their facebook and google "wisdom" on social media.  All of this post and so many others like it represents false and baseless conclusions from someone with no expertise, but accomplished internet arguing skills.  Airwaves from at least two channels regularly echo this vile nonesense and have indeed created a cult certain in their own "wisdom" that they know better than the experts with lifetimes of experience (a community of our brightest and most studied and accomplished people with knowledge and analysis that the world has never seen before).  If they only harmed themselves, it would not be so bad.   But they spread their fake data and arrogant expertless conclusions like a shadow virus through social media. This sad spectable has killed many innocents, including children and elderly in their families and communities.   

Every vaccine ever has had some risk, but there is an overwhelming amount of data that these Covid vaccines and every other one regularly adminisered in the U.S. with FDA approval is a safe and effective for over 99.9999% and is managing risk effectively for the broader community.   The FDA approval processi s rigorous and sound and we are all in good hands.  It is not a case of everyone should "do their own research" and balance the risks, because people - even reasonably smart people - do not have the training, tools, and education to make a sound judgment and analysis of the data on their own.  For the same reason, a patient requiring major surgery would not "do their own research" on how their anesthesia should be administered and how each aspect of the surgery should be undertaken.  Google and facebook are not getting us there on everyone "doing their own research" and sharing their wisdom on social media as puported experts.          

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Wow...what a self righteous post.  <eye roll>  You clearly have reading comprehension based on your post.  Please point out specifically where anyone on here said " DO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE"?  Or " DO NOT LISTEN TO DOCTORS OR "EXPERTS"?  IF you could read you would realize people are talking about the logic and big picture and the conclusions people are coming to based on NOT doing that.  You could be the smartest scientist in the world but have ZERO ability to look at the big picture holistically and make a logical decision based on it that impacts peoples life's.  I don't care how many degree's after your name you have, this is a fact.  What people are arguing is the decisions "experts" and politicians are making based on incomplete data.  Throw on top of it the political BS game and it completely muddies the waters and causes huge division.  To me the problem is some like to take the news, media, politicians (including Fauci) as gospel.  Others like to make their own decisions based on what they look up themselves and think about things critically.  What I tend to see is the people who follow the news, media, politicians, etc. tend to be the ones who feel only THEIR perspective is correct and everyone else's is "Dumb".  The other side of things just want to be able to make their own decisions and allow others to do the same.

I'll never understand the logic of how the vast vast majority have to adhere to the very very minority in regards to these things.  If you don't want to get vaccinated, that is on you and you assume the risk it entails which includes getting infected by someone else...that is their choice!!  If the high risk folks don't get vaccinated and go out in public, they are choosing that for themselves...that isn't on me.  Why is that hard to understand??

Back to wrestling...what I struggle with is the "logic" around all these mandates and protocols when it comes to schools and sports...I sit and ask myself.."WHY???"  Why in the heck does it have to be that way?  If there is 99.99% chance that nothing happens to the 5-23 year olds (23-35 year old coaches included) catching Covid, why does the whole freaking wrestling team need to be shut down if someone test positive?  Why does the school need to shut down?  Why do kids/young adults have to miss out on opportunities because a 60+ year old with underlining conditions may catch Covid based on their own choice of being around a 5-23 year olds sporting event??  And I'll address it right now...the one off super emotional cases don't count...that is a weak argument from serious lack of critical thinking.

Edited by dman115
terrible spelling

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25 minutes ago, Elevator said:

 the incredible awesome community of scientists and medical experts that have come to the rescue. 

You mean the people who support mask mandates for us peons but never say a damn word when the elites flaunt those same rules? Elites who are all too willing the break the backs of small business owners and even property owners in the name of "PANDEMIC" relief but who never say anything about unvaccinated migrants crossing the border by the millions this year? The experts who have not said a word about postal workers getting a carve out exemption? You mean those awesome people? 

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3 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You mean the people who support mask mandates for us peons but never say a damn word when the elites flaunt those same rules? Elites who are all too willing the break the backs of small business owners and even property owners in the name of "PANDEMIC" relief but who never say anything about unvaccinated migrants crossing the border by the millions this year? The experts who have not said a word about postal workers getting a carve out exemption? You mean those awesome people? 

Whoa...whoa Tbar...you can't bring that up.  Not that it matters because you will either get crickets from people like elevator., or they will play the ole weak argument card..."You are just a redneck republican, and it is Trump's fault".

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Just now, 1032004 said:

Pretty sure they don't

I know...some people on here were using that extreme when bashing Howe and Kennedy for what people are assuming is their decision to not get vaxed.  Yikes...I almost said waxed...don't want that visual!

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Even if that's not "the messaging," I think most people realize that.   Do you think that messaging would have had any impact on guys like Ben Askren, Gabe Dean, Howe & Kennedy getting the vaccine?

Instead, when that is brought up the new argument (which even you have used) seems to be "but it doesn't work to prevent infection!"   Except it does.   Most vaccines aren't 100% effective.
 

"Don't mess with Texas" was effective. 

"Don't mess with mama." 

  • Not a silver bullet.  Not everyone had the nature and nurture for emotion intelligence.  It resonates with me but honestly the thought of making others sick, when I am not sick, is a secondary consideration.  How do you change that?  

"Doesn't work to prevent."

  • It is all about the untrusted messengers and changing messages.
Edited by jross

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25 minutes ago, dman115 said:

I know...some people on here were using that extreme when bashing Howe and Kennedy for what people are assuming is their decision to not get vaxed.  Yikes...I almost said waxed...don't want that visual!

I don't remember everything that others said.    Having to shut down the whole team because of it may be a bit extreme, but one of them giving it to Ryan Deakin, Yahya Thomas, Chris Cannon, Michael DeAugustino, Lucas Davison or anyone else with high expectations a week before NCAA's is certainly possible.

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42 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Hazewinkel took a volunteer position there.  Maybe Howe will run the RTC now.

If OU can get Howe that is what he would do. I am not sure who else is interested in him and I haven't heard of any offers to Kennedy. Maybe there is an RTC that could use him or maybe a new RTC pops up with Kennedy running it. Who knows, but I hope they both stay in our great sport. 

Edited by TexRef
added more

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

You mean the people who support mask mandates for us peons but never say a damn word when the elites flaunt those same rules? Elites who are all too willing the break the backs of small business owners and even property owners in the name of "PANDEMIC" relief but who never say anything about unvaccinated migrants crossing the border by the millions this year? The experts who have not said a word about postal workers getting a carve out exemption? You mean those awesome people? 

everyone criticizes the elites when they break the rules. there are not "millions" of unvaccinated migrants crossing the border. what the **** do the experts have to do with the postal exemption? do you think they requested it? this is just a clown car of nonsense. every time you think it's finished another unsupported argument spills out.

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21 minutes ago, ugarte said:

everyone criticizes the elites when they break the rules. there are not "millions" of unvaccinated migrants crossing the border. 

The media reports over 1 million illegal immigrants have attempted to cross the border this year and they are not required to present proof of vaccination.  This is in addition to the low estimated 10M+ illegal immigrants already here and an unknown number that continue to make it through.

  • Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas on Tuesday insisted that the US borders are closed, but couldn’t give a “ballpark” estimate on how many of the 1.3 million illegal immigrants apprehended at the border this year are being held, were deported or released in the US.
  • White House Press Secretary suggested during Monday’s press briefing that migrants that illegally enter the United States do not need to present proof of vaccination at the border the same way that foreign nationals reportedly do when they fly into the U.S. because the illegal aliens are “not intending to stay here for a lengthy period of time.”

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On 9/21/2021 at 6:51 AM, klehner said:

Your "~10x" number is way off.

If you have a better number, let's see the data.  I'm talking current which is related more to Delta not since bigginning.  It can be difficult finding good data because everyone seems to be reporting different really need to look at numbers per population.

Here's a link to a recent article:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

excerpts and example from couple states

 

Screenshot_20210922-105328_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-104824_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-105103_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-105606_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-103034_Chrome.jpg

Edited by ionel

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2 hours ago, dman115 said:

Wow...what a self righteous post.  <eye roll>  You clearly have reading comprehension based on your post.  Please point out specifically where anyone on here said " DO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE"?  Or " DO NOT LISTEN TO DOCTORS OR "EXPERTS"?  IF you could read you would realize people are talking about the logic and big picture and the conclusions people are coming to based on NOT doing that.  You could be the smartest scientist in the world but have ZERO ability to look at the big picture holistically and make a logical decision based on it that impacts peoples life's.  I don't care how many degree's after your name you have, this is a fact.  What people are arguing is the decisions "experts" and politicians are making based on incomplete data.  Throw on top of it the political BS game and it completely muddies the waters and causes huge division.  To me the problem is some like to take the news, media, politicians (including Fauci) as gospel.  Others like to make their own decisions based on what they look up themselves and think about things critically.  What I tend to see is the people who follow the news, media, politicians, etc. tend to be the ones who feel only THEIR perspective is correct and everyone else's is "Dumb".  The other side of things just want to be able to make their own decisions and allow others to do the same.

I'll never understand the logic of how the vast vast majority have to adhere to the very very minority in regards to these things.  If you don't want to get vaccinated, that is on you and you assume the risk it entails which includes getting infected by someone else...that is their choice!!  If the high risk folks don't get vaccinated and go out in public, they are choosing that for themselves...that isn't on me.  Why is that hard to understand??

Back to wrestling...what I struggle with is the "logic" around all these mandates and protocols when it comes to schools and sports...I sit and ask myself.."WHY???"  Why in the heck does it have to be that way?  If there is 99.99% chance that nothing happens to the 5-23 year olds (23-35 year old coaches included) catching Covid, why does the whole freaking wrestling team need to be shut down if someone test positive?  Why does the school need to shut down?  Why do kids/young adults have to miss out on opportunities because a 60+ year old with underlining conditions may catch Covid based on their own choice of being around a 5-23 year olds sporting event??  And I'll address it right now...the one off super emotional cases don't count...that is a weak argument from serious lack of critical thinking.

You could have left everything out but the bolded part.

Maybe before speculating on someone else's reading comprehension you could work on your own? Every point in your rambling post has been addressed multiple times in this thread. I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse or simply glossing over posts but if you want serious answers to your rhetorical questions you can find them in the thread 

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4 hours ago, BobDole said:

This sounds familiar

 

First half of a Facebook post shared by the guy at the end from May of this year:

Quote
Keep in mind... The Anti Christ comes before the Rapture. I have studied the Bible a lot in my life, in many different forms and it really does always come down to this. I have been hearing about the second coming of Christ and the events unfolding since I was a kid. The "Mark of the Beast", microchips, no cash/just plastic, Martial Law, TOTAL Government dependency/control. When we are raising a family, working long hours, some two jobs, lots of things go unnoticed or just get ignored.
 
No one can comprehend how bad it will be til it is. We have NEVER been told to stay home, quit work and rely on the Government. We are seeing a lot of "firsts" since January. Can our minds and bodies handle what's coming?
 
Not without God - I wonder what doctor they will have on the news explaining the Rapture and the disappearance of so many people? I won’t be here for it but it’s just a thought.
 
While the devil is preparing people for the Anti Christ, God is preparing people for the Rapture. I don’t know when the Rapture will take place but I do believe it could be soon. And I KNOW that I won’t be left behind when that trumpet sounds!

 

Edited by 1032004

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

You mean the people who support mask mandates for us peons but never say a damn word when the elites flaunt those same rules? Elites who are all too willing the break the backs of small business owners and even property owners in the name of "PANDEMIC" relief but who never say anything about unvaccinated migrants crossing the border by the millions this year? The experts who have not said a word about postal workers getting a carve out exemption? You mean those awesome people? 

You believe that “scientists and medical experts” are supposed to get together in their free time to operate a public relations office that responds to Facebook memes?  Seems reasonable. 

Edited by Katie

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37 minutes ago, ionel said:

If you have a better number, let's see the data.  I'm talking current which is related more to Delta not since bigginning.  It can be difficult finding good data because everyone seems to be reporting different really need to look at numbers per population.

Here's a link to a recent article:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

excerpts and example from couple states

 

Screenshot_20210922-105328_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-104824_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-105103_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-105606_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20210922-103034_Chrome.jpg

Yeah I think roughly 10x isn't far off.  That equates to ~91% effectiveness.

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2 hours ago, ugarte said:

everyone criticizes the elites when they break the rules. there are not "millions" of unvaccinated migrants crossing the border. what the **** do the experts have to do with the postal exemption? do you think they requested it? this is just a clown car of nonsense. every time you think it's finished another unsupported argument spills out.

i'd like for @TBar1977 to define "elites" for us because every time i talk to him on here he's defending the righteousness of capitalism. now he's complaining about small business owners getting crushed? that's the market baby. also last time i checked we're significantly less locked down than we were under his guy. he'd be thrilled with how things were going if trump were still in charge.

also just a heads up to the anti-vaxxers on here: all of your hero politicians virtue signaling about opposing vaccines are vaccinated. hell, the texas governor's already had his booster. they know the deal. behind the scenes they're panicking because they know they're decimating their voting base for short term culture war. that's why you're starting to see a shift in right wing media. Breitbart just published a piece saying that liberals actually don't want conservatives to get the vaccine so they die. they know that conservatives will double down when they're shamed, so that's why they're doing it. the piece is now saying conservatives should get the trump vaccine to own the libs lmao it's good advice.

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16 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

 

also just a heads up to the anti-vaxxers on here: all of your hero politicians virtue signaling about opposing vaccines are vaccinated. hell, the texas governor's already had his booster. they know the deal. behind the scenes they're panicking because they know they're decimating their voting base for short term culture war. that's why you're starting to see a shift in right wing media. Breitbart just published a piece saying that liberals actually don't want conservatives to get the vaccine so they die. they know that conservatives will double down when they're shamed, so that's why they're doing it. the piece is now saying conservatives should get the trump vaccine to own the libs lmao it's good advice.

This entire paragraph shows you actually have no idea what the hell you are talking about ..you have all these generalizations about conservatives and republicans not vaxxing and calling them anti vaxxers meanwhile the most unvaccinated group by far in America are inner city black people …not exactly Maga country……the most unvaccinated demographic is literally a part of the democratic base lol …you don’t see church people and Trump supporters out here protesting vax passports but Black Lives Matter is out in  nyc protesting for days now…are they secretly just these dirty anti vax republicans in disguise? 
stop repeating what you hear on tv and spewing it on the internet like it’s gospel you sound like a fool

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1 minute ago, Antitroll2828 said:

This entire paragraph shows you actually have no idea what the hell you are talking about ..you have all these generalizations about conservatives and republicans not vaxxing and calling them anti vaxxers meanwhile the most unvaccinated group by far in America are inner city black people …not exactly Maga country……the most unvaccinated demographic is literally a part of the democratic base lol …you don’t see church people and Trump supporters out here protesting vax passports but Black Lives Matter is out in  nyc protesting for days now…are they secretly just these dirty anti vax republicans in disguise? 
stop repeating what you hear on tv and spewing it on the internet like it’s gospel you sound like a fool

insane thing for you specifically to say lol (maybe substitute facebook for tv)

and you misrepresented the post. i'm talking about conservative anti-vaxxers because that's who's posting on this board (you). and i know a bunch of republicans are vaxxed. that's good. i'm not talking about them. 

unsurprisingly, your thing about blm protesting vaccine mandates was false lol. they protested a specific restaurant who accused 3 black women of having fake vaccine cards and one of the staff dropped a racial slur when an argument broke out. 

i'm honestly past the point of caring all that much about anti-vaxx people. you're annoying and keeping this whole thing going, but i'm not going to waste my time trying to convince people who aren't driven by rational thinking. but i'm also not going to stop chuckling knowing that you've been played for a fool by the politicians and conservative celebrities who are all vaxxed.

 

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9 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

This entire paragraph shows you actually have no idea what the hell you are talking about ..you have all these generalizations about conservatives and republicans not vaxxing and calling them anti vaxxers meanwhile the most unvaccinated group by far in America are inner city black people …not exactly Maga country……the most unvaccinated demographic is literally a part of the democratic base lol …you don’t see church people and Trump supporters out here protesting vax passports but Black Lives Matter is out in  nyc protesting for days now…are they secretly just these dirty anti vax republicans in disguise? 
stop repeating what you hear on tv and spewing it on the internet like it’s gospel you sound like a fool

I don't think it's by far actually.  I believe rural whites and inner city blacks have comparable vaccination rates.   Not much good data out there though that's not just polls.

Here is one that just has racial breakdown, no political - https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-population-that-has-received-a-covid-19-vaccine-by-race-ethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"} 

That shows total whites as 52% and total blacks as 43%, but of course white Democrats have a much higher vaccination rate than white Republicans.   Several states actually have a higher total % of blacks vaccinated than whites - Alaska, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oregon and Washington state, with Alabama and West Virginia equal.   Many states aren't far off, and there's also no data available for 7 states.

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