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Who has had a better wrestling career so far?

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I think what you are missing in your Olympic analysis is that yes it is a 16 man bracket.  But they are supposed to be the top 16 in the world by one per country.  That should make it a tougher tourney than the WCs.  Shorter but tougher.  The competition is tougher, hence Dake did not get gold  where he easily did at the previous 2 WCs.  You could also say that his two golds were at a weaker weight class because it is not an Olympic weight.  That may just be an excuse but I think it has merit. 

mspart

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40 minutes ago, mspart said:

I think what you are missing in your Olympic analysis is that yes it is a 16 man bracket.  But they are supposed to be the top 16 in the world by one per country.  That should make it a tougher tourney than the WCs.  Shorter but tougher.  The competition is tougher, hence Dake did not get gold  where he easily did at the previous 2 WCs.  You could also say that his two golds were at a weaker weight class because it is not an Olympic weight.  That may just be an excuse but I think it has merit. 

mspart

I understand what it's supposed to be, but Olympic qualifiers include reps from countries who had placers in the top 6 from the 2019 Worlds, and two each from the continental qualifying tournaments. I appreciate the sentiment of diversity - having equal representation from regions of the world with fewer resources for wrestling - but I don't think we can say that it, in fact, produces a tougher competitive field than an expanded one per country.  For example, I don't think we can say with a straight face that 2020 Olympic field at 86 was more competitive than the 2019 Worlds (except that DT wasn't there). 

That takes nothing away from Taylor, who beat the 2019 World Champ to win his Olympic Gold - It's still a highest-level achievement. And, my point was an attempt to use "evidence" to argue whether winning was harder to do between weight classes in different years. Perhaps what I failed to emphasize was the *breadth of field in 2019 at 86 compared to 79. The list of countries training to qualify at the end of that cycle at 86kg was second only to 65kg, which had 55 competitors in 2019. 

I won't attempt to qualify the level of top competitors at 79 in 2019 compared those at 86, but it's fair to acknowledge that the numbers of competitors at 79 was comparatively hollowed out (as were the numbers at 92kg).

Edited by denger
*consistency in language regarding quantity vs quality

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42 minutes ago, mspart said:

I think what you are missing in your Olympic analysis is that yes it is a 16 man bracket.  But they are supposed to be the top 16 in the world by one per country.  That should make it a tougher tourney than the WCs.  Shorter but tougher.  The competition is tougher, hence Dake did not get gold  where he easily did at the previous 2 WCs.  You could also say that his two golds were at a weaker weight class because it is not an Olympic weight.  That may just be an excuse but I think it has merit. 

mspart

Its tougher in the sense that qualifying for the Olympics is harder for an individual athlete because of the reduced weight classes and strict continental quotas but does that produce a better field at the actual event? How is Africa getting two guaranteed  spots over some better Euro wrestlers improving the competition compared to worlds?

If you wanted to create a stronger tournament than either WC or Olympics you'd give Russia,  Iran, and the US more entries per weight  than other countries. 

 

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3 minutes ago, HawkY said:

Its tougher in the sense that qualifying for the Olympics is harder for an individual athlete because of the reduced weight classes and strict continental quotas but does that produce a better field at the actual event? How is Africa getting two guaranteed  spots over some better Euro wrestlers improving the competition compared to worlds?

If you wanted to create a stronger tournament than either WC or Olympics you'd give Russia,  Iran, and the US more entries per weight  than other countries. 

 

...and I think everyone agrees that World and Olympic events became more competitive when the USSR broke up, and there was more than one "Russian" to beat. 

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1 hour ago, scribe said:

Taylor waited too late to go up in weight. He’s been outstanding at his full weight. 

His waiting only cost him one WC max and may have saved him from getting fireman's carried and some broken ribs. He could have gotten some silver and bronze medals though. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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21 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

I'm out of the loop, why did all these Dake Taylor threads sprout up?
Is it all one big joke or....

It's the offseason rite of passage. The NFL has the draft, MLB has spring training, wrestling has Taylor/Dake fantasy matchups.

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OK, I went to Wikipedia for results on these two guys.

Taylor

1 Olympic Gold

1 World Championships Gold

2 World Cup Golds

3 Pan American Golds

1 Ivan Yarygin gold  At 86kg (World's toughest tournament)

3 US Open Gold

3 US Open  Silver

Total medals  14

 

Dake

1 Olympic Bronze

2 World Championships Gold

1 World Cup Gold

1 Pan American Gold

1 Ivan Yarygin Silver  At 79 kg  (Worlds Toughest Tournament)

2 US Open Golds

1 US Open Silver

Total medals  9

 

From this data, it would appear that Taylor has had the more successful senior Freestyle career.   I see the Yarygin tourney as a differentiator here as well as Olys.   But it must not be forgotten that Taylor has not defeated Dake head to head in Freestyle, and they have had a few matches. 

mspart 

 

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Hands down Taylor. Taylor’s two golds tower over Dake’s in quality of competition and the fact one was an Olympic gold  

In 2018 Taylor beat the 2x World / Olympic champion at the prime of his career (Yazdani) and repeated the feat in 2020 beating him again, all at an official Olympic weight. Dake’s two world titles came at a non-Olympic weight and the critical fact is his one go at 74kg he took a bronze. 

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On 9/24/2021 at 5:56 AM, Billyhoyle said:

His waiting only cost him one WC max and may have saved him from getting fireman's carried and some broken ribs. He could have gotten some silver and bronze medals though. 

Curious what year you think he could have snuck in a world gold? 2014-15-16 was some dude named Sadulaev (and tiny Taylor until ‘16). 2017 couldn’t get past Cox and maybe/maybe not could have run the table and beaten Yaz even if he did get the spot.

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4 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Curious what year you think he could have snuck in a world gold? 2014-15-16 was some dude named Sadulaev (and tiny Taylor until ‘16). 2017 couldn’t get past Cox and maybe/maybe not could have run the table and beaten Yaz even if he did get the spot.

My assumption is that if he had gone up earlier, he may have built his body up earlier and would have beaten Cox in 2017. That’s why I’m saying one max, but not guaranteed. DT from 2018 or 2020 beats 2017 Cox and Yaz. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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6 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Curious what year you think he could have snuck in a world gold? 2014-15-16 was some dude named Sadulaev (and tiny Taylor until ‘16). 2017 couldn’t get past Cox and maybe/maybe not could have run the table and beaten Yaz even if he did get the spot.

Didn't Dake also beat Taylor at 86 and then lose to Cox?

Actually, I just checked. Dake beat Taylor twice at 86, once in 2015 and again in 2016.

 

Edited by NJDan

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The argument about the Olympic title is not without any merit, but it's also literally the only data point in Taylor's favor.  Basically, you're presupposing that Dake and Taylor were roughly equivalent or Dake only a little beyond Taylor at the time of the Olympic title, and that's just not true.

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40 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

The argument about the Olympic title is not without any merit, but it's also literally the only data point in Taylor's favor.  Basically, you're presupposing that Dake and Taylor were roughly equivalent or Dake only a little beyond Taylor at the time of the Olympic title, and that's just not true.

Who had the better career: Terry or Tom Brands?

Edited by Billyhoyle

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21 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Who had the better career: Terry or Tom Brands?

Tom.  He was a 4 time All American, three time national champion (all with a better winning percentage), one time world champion, one time Olympic champion.

Terry was just a little bit behind all thru their careers.  He was a three time All American (did not start as a freshman), two time national champion, two time world champion, one time Olympic bronze medalist.

Tom won the 1996 Olympic trials to make the team and eventually win gold.  Terry did not.  Also, there is not a significant head to head history to discuss.

Terry's career was (slightly) longer because he came back for 2000 Olympics, but his results were only ever (at best) equal to Tom's, and typically just a half step behind.  Which is nothing to sneeze at, Tom is one of the best we've ever produced.

Edited by VakAttack

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