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Who's Better: David Taylor or Kyle Dake

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On 9/24/2021 at 2:17 PM, mspart said:

So if Dake got to 86kg shape, would he beat Taylor?  Perhaps that is the question.  Taylor has found his home.  Cox who is really good never won at 86 in the WC or Olys.  Taylor has done so at both.  But Taylor lost to Cox some time ago at the same weight.  So peaking is what is important.  It appears Taylor is still peaking, I don't see him stopping soon.  Hopefully Dake can do so at the new weight he is at.  But he probably has to cut a lot to make that weight which might drain him a little.  Mostly just rambling here.  But here is the really the issue:

We should be happy for and proud of JB, KD, DT, JC, and KS for being the champions they are.  They are at different weights but are all champions.  Nobody can take that away from them. 

mspart

Dake has beaten Taylor TWICE at 86. No need to speculate.

 

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8 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

wow the one talking point that made the discussion possible at all.....

The only talking point that matters.  Outside of a situation like Lee Kemp or somebody who couldn't compete due to injury, there's no comparing an olympic champion to non olympic champion.  It doesn't matter how many state titles, ncaa titles, or midland championships Dake has. Their H2H record from 5-10 years ago doesn't matter.  Taylor, Steveson, Burroughs, Snyder, and Varner are in a class above Dake.  Yes, Dake is still one of the top U.S. wrestlers ever (maybe top 25-50), which is an incredible achievement, I'd even put him over some of the 1984 olympic champions, but he will need to perform the way we all thought  he would in Tokyo 3 years from now to be compared to Taylor, Cael, etc.  

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7 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The only talking point that matters.  Outside of a situation like Lee Kemp or somebody who couldn't compete due to injury, there's no comparing an olympic champion to non olympic champion.  It doesn't matter how many state titles, ncaa titles, or midland championships Dake has. Their H2H record from 5-10 years ago doesn't matter.  Taylor, Steveson, Burroughs, Snyder, and Varner are in a class above Dake.  Yes, Dake is still one of the top U.S. wrestlers ever (maybe top 25-50), which is an incredible achievement, I'd even put him over some of the 1984 olympic champions, but he will need to perform the way we all thought  he would in Tokyo 3 years from now to be compared to Taylor, Cael, etc.  

Dake and Taylor both have two world titles. You are just arbitrarily elevating the one medal that DT has. Dake has  more NCAA titles. To you they don't matter b/c your boy has only 2.

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36 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The only talking point that matters.  Outside of a situation like Lee Kemp or somebody who couldn't compete due to injury, there's no comparing an olympic champion to non olympic champion.  It doesn't matter how many state titles, ncaa titles, or midland championships Dake has. Their H2H record from 5-10 years ago doesn't matter.  Taylor, Steveson, Burroughs, Snyder, and Varner are in a class above Dake.  Yes, Dake is still one of the top U.S. wrestlers ever (maybe top 25-50), which is an incredible achievement, I'd even put him over some of the 1984 olympic champions, but he will need to perform the way we all thought  he would in Tokyo 3 years from now to be compared to Taylor, Cael, etc.  

yeah...you are a liar or really dumb in a really convenient way.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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On 9/24/2021 at 2:17 PM, mspart said:

So if Dake got to 86kg shape, would he beat Taylor?  Perhaps that is the question.  Taylor has found his home.  Cox who is really good never won at 86 in the WC or Olys.  Taylor has done so at both.  But Taylor lost to Cox some time ago at the same weight.  So peaking is what is important.  It appears Taylor is still peaking, I don't see him stopping soon.  Hopefully Dake can do so at the new weight he is at.  But he probably has to cut a lot to make that weight which might drain him a little.  Mostly just rambling here.  But here is the really the issue:

We should be happy for and proud of JB, KD, DT, JC, and KS for being the champions they are.  They are at different weights but are all champions.  Nobody can take that away from them. 

mspart

Dake beat Taylor at 86-- twice. And this was when Dake was way below 86. So we already know Dake can beat Taylor at 86 and at 74. Maybe there is some weight that Taylor could win, like 81.5. 

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28 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

yeah...you are a liar or really dumb in a really convenient way.

Clearly you take this personally. What part of this post is a lie? I would be saying this same thing if Dake had won and Taylor took bronze. I was rooting for both. 

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22 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Dake beat Taylor at 86-- twice. And this was when Dake was way below 86. So we already know Dake can beat Taylor at 86 and at 74. Maybe there is some weight that Taylor could win, like 81.5. 

So, I think we can say Dake was unquestionably better in Folkstyle, pretty much certainly better in Freestyle.  Maybe Taylor beat Dake in Greco that I'm unaware of???  Hence the debate...

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10 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Clearly you take this personally. What part of this post is a lie? I would be saying this same thing if Dake had won and Taylor took bronze. I was rooting for both. 

Yeah obviously you would claim that, your intellectually dishonest argument is based on that point.

The problem is that you are trying to gerrymander all of recorded history around one loss, and you would have to be in idiot or a liar to think that was a valid way of thinking.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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42 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah obviously you would claim that, your intellectually dishonest argument is based on that point.

The problem is that you are trying to gerrymander all of recorded history around one loss, and you would have to be in idiot or a liar to think that was a valid way of thinking.

That's kind of how individual sports work.  Nothing is more important than winning on the biggest stage.  I called Dake one of the best USA wrestlers in history in my post.  Yet somehow because he's not at the level of an olympic champion, you're triggered to the point of calling me an idiot and a liar. Don't get mad at me for it-3 years from now he will have another opportunity to prove that he is at the level of Taylor, Varner, Gable, Burroughs, etc.  Right now he can be compared to Cox, Terry Brands, Logan Stieber, Zeke Jones, etc.  There's no shame in that-wrestling is an unforgiving sport, and he did a great job representing the USA this year.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

That's kind of how individual sports work.  Nothing is more important than winning on the biggest stage.  I called Dake one of the best USA wrestlers in history in my post.  Yet somehow because he's not at the level of an olympic champion, you're triggered to the point of calling me an idiot and a liar. Don't get mad at me for it-3 years from now he will have another opportunity to prove that he is at the level of Taylor, Varner, Gable, Burroughs, etc.  Right now he can be compared to Cox, Terry Brands, Logan Stieber, Zeke Jones, etc.  

Again...you are going all out on a false premise, which is lying in my book.

or dumb

Edited by hammerlockthree

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13 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Again...you are going all out on a false premise, which is lying in my book.

or dumb

There is a clip of Terry Brands saying the exact same thing when describing his career in regards to his world titles vs Olympic medals.  You can feel differently if you want- I'm not going to call you dumb for it, just wrong.  We aren't getting anywhere with the insults and name calling.  Let's just have a vote and see where popular opinion stands.  I'm sure i'm not the only idiot out there.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

There is a clip of Terry Brands saying the exact same thing when describing his career in regards to his world titles vs Olympic medals.  You can feel differently if you want- I'm not going to call you dumb for it, just wrong. 

Yeah but I haven't said anything dumb....you have.

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17 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah but I haven't said anything dumb....you have.

Not trying to start a fight but you seem to be arguing a losing point.  In your opinion, Dake is better than Taylor because Dake got Bronze and Taylor got Gold at the Olympics?  That seems to be what you are arguing.  I would not buy that argument by the way.  I'd take another look at your quote above and re-evaluate. 

mspart

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1 hour ago, mspart said:

Not trying to start a fight but you seem to be arguing a losing point.  In your opinion, Dake is better than Taylor because Dake got Bronze and Taylor got Gold at the Olympics?  That seems to be what you are arguing.  I would not buy that argument by the way.  I'd take another look at your quote above and re-evaluate. 

mspart

No...I'm saying that its stupid to argue that the only variable  in the entire discussion favoring Taylor should determine the entire argument just cause someone is his fanboy. 

Its willful ignorance.

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Here is something I put together for another thread.  But it details similar time frames and similar tourneys.  All found on their wiki articles.

******************************************************************************

OK, I went to Wikipedia for results on these two guys.

Taylor

1 Olympic Gold

1 World Championships Gold

2 World Cup Golds

3 Pan American Golds

1 Ivan Yarygin gold  At 86kg (World's toughest tournament)

3 US Open Gold

3 US Open  Silver

Total medals  14

 

Dake

1 Olympic Bronze

2 World Championships Gold

1 World Cup Gold

1 Pan American Gold

1 Ivan Yarygin Silver  At 79 kg  (Worlds Toughest Tournament)

2 US Open Golds

1 US Open Silver

Total medals  9

 

From this data, it would appear that Taylor has had the more successful senior Freestyle career.   I see the Yarygin tourney as a differentiator here as well as Olys.   But it must not be forgotten that Taylor has not defeated Dake head to head in Freestyle, and they have had a few matches. 

mspart 

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32 minutes ago, mspart said:

Here is something I put together for another thread.  But it details similar time frames and similar tourneys.  All found on their wiki articles.

******************************************************************************

OK, I went to Wikipedia for results on these two guys.

Taylor

1 Olympic Gold

1 World Championships Gold

2 World Cup Golds

3 Pan American Golds

1 Ivan Yarygin gold  At 86kg (World's toughest tournament)

3 US Open Gold

3 US Open  Silver

Total medals  14

 

Dake

1 Olympic Bronze

2 World Championships Gold

1 World Cup Gold

1 Pan American Gold

1 Ivan Yarygin Silver  At 79 kg  (Worlds Toughest Tournament)

2 US Open Golds

1 US Open Silver

Total medals  9

 

From this data, it would appear that Taylor has had the more successful senior Freestyle career.   I see the Yarygin tourney as a differentiator here as well as Olys.   But it must not be forgotten that Taylor has not defeated Dake head to head in Freestyle, and they have had a few matches. 

mspart 

I'm just glad someone is taking the discussion seriously at last. 

Things in Dakes favor that don't translate to counting medals(and i don't think counting medals is a great metric, but its better than just liking the guy and making stuff up) 1) He owns him head to head (you mentioned) 2) Dake just beat Burroughs twice without much suspense, and excuse me for not conducting a poll but there are plenty who think Burroughs 5 titles in a non soviet era make him the best USA wrestler of all time.

 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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