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3acoachinwyo

Dake Vs. Sanderson Vs. Smith

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I have read most of the posts about Kyle Dake because of his 4 titles at 4 different weight classes being enough to put him as the best college wrestler of all time, and if others have said this and I have not read it, then I apologize but here is my view:

 

Pat Smith should get enough votes for simply being the first to do it.

 

Cael never lost, say what you want about his "loss" but if you are going to charge him with a loss that doesn't count, then you don't really know what you are talking about because simply put, it doesn't count.

 

Dake certainly deserves to be in the conversation, but to say he is the best ever simply because he grew, is to say that Cael should have cut to 174 as a freshman, then gone up to 84, then bumped to 97 as a junior, and for his final season, in order to be considered the best he should have gone up to heavyweight.

 

We all think it so I may as well say it, most of us that think we know a little about the sport would probably admit that we think the quality of wrestling usually goes down a bit the heavier one is, and that is not intended as a disrespect to 197, and heavyweights. Far from it, I know that there have been some tremendous athletes win championships, and some really good wrestlers not even finish in the top 4 or top 8 some years at those weights.

 

However, to those that say Kyle Dake is the best collegiate wrestler of all time based solely on the fact that he continued to grow, and stopped cutting as much weight as the average wrestler, and still won 4 titles? Don't get me wrong I really love that the kid more or less stuck it to the traditionalists that still say, "in order to be competitive in this sport, you have to CUT".

 

Do you really want to try and convince the rest of us that think he is not the best but probably more like ONE of the best ever, and that in order to be given the title of BEST EVER, CAEL should have done what he did at 174, 184, 197, and Heavyweight, and only then we would have considered his career ANY BETTER?

 

 

Come on now

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1. Sanderson

2. Dake

3. Smith

 

I don't see how you can put Sanderson any lower than N1. He was undefeated, nobody else has done this. Dake in N2 slot because he did everything else he possible could have to stand out (no red shirt, 4 dif. weight classes) but in my mind this is still not undefeated. People could make a case that Cael might not have done it if he didn't RS, but he did so it's a moot point. Smith was the first, but didn't do anything beyond what Dake/Cael did. All three are legends in their own right.

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They're all an excuse for posters full of envy to try to bring Dake down. I mean did this guy sleep with your mom or your sister or are you really this upset because he torched the magician 4 times? Get over it. 4 titles, 4 weight classes, no redshirt. I can't believe that actually was accomplished. I'm not saying Cael isn't the best but I would bet on someone going undefeated with 1 loss that doesn't count before I'd bet on 4 titles in 4 different weight classes with no redshirt. Simply amazing. Can't wait for the next 5 threads about why Dake isn't the best ever.

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They're all an excuse for posters full of envy to try to bring Dake down. I mean did this guy sleep with your mom or your sister or are you really this upset because he torched the magician 4 times? Get over it. 4 titles, 4 weight classes, no redshirt. I can't believe that actually was accomplished. I'm not saying Cael isn't the best but I would bet on someone going undefeated with 1 loss that doesn't count before I'd bet on 4 titles in 4 different weight classes with no redshirt. Simply amazing. Can't wait for the next 5 threads about why Dake isn't the best ever.

 

Yep, he sure "torched" Taylor those 4 times - what with one being in freestyle and the other 3 being a ride out win, and two 1 pointers. :roll:

 

Also, way to scold those "trying to bring Dake down." and in the very next sentence belittle Taylor shamelessly - bravo...that is some world-class hypocrisy.

 

Finally, it sure does seem like you are, in fact, saying Cael isn't the best ever (and Dake is) - so just say it.

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Sanderson is the greatest of all time. He never lost. End of story.

Yes he did.

 

Not in D1/NCAA competition he didn't. It is kind of what he is know for, ya know. It should be obvious that in the context of this discussion, that much is implied.

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Why is it that before Dake became a 4 time champ nobody mentioned the "loss" that Cael had. For the past 10+ years it has been "Cael, the only undefeated 4x champ". But now that Dake has won his fourth, people say Cael really wasn't undefeated and count the redshirt loss. Ridiculous....Cael is the greatest.

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Let's look at it this way. If Sanderson chose to wrestle as a true freshman, would he have won a national title? Considering he did lose that year, there is a good chance he does not (although its certainly possible). If he had wrested and even placed 2nd as a true freshman, I think most would rank him below Dake. But since he did not attempt the more challenging path that Dake took, he is now considered the better wrestler? I'm not sure thats right.

 

That is why I agree there is a good argument for Dake #1. However, with that said, I still think I would rank Sanderson #1 because we will never know what would have happened that year, and we do know that Dake lost later in his career and Sanderson did not.

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I always said that if someone won 4 times without a redshirt it would be more impressive than Cael. I said it when Schlatter won as a true freshman, when Ware did it, and when Dake did it. The difference is nobody followed it up with 3 more until Dake. I can say pretty confidently that Cael would not have won his true freshman year. He simply was not good enough yet. Dake was, that's why he didn't have to redshirt. That's why he had the guts to go do it as a true freshman, same reason he had the guts to bump up to the same weight as another wrestler that should be considered one of the all time greats, because he was good enough.

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that's ridiculous, it wasn't Dakes' "guts" that made him wrestle as a true freshman, he had no choice but to compete in his true freshman year.

 

You can say it pretty confidently that Cael wouldn't have won but you really have no idea, NO ONE knows what would have happened had Cael gone to Cornell instead of Iowa State. Or for that matter had Dake gone to Iowa State instead of Cornell. Then he would have had that chance to take a less stress redshirt year before starting his 4 years of eligibility.

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Dake started to beat Leen consistently in the room as an undersized true freshmen. Koll didn't outright say this, but it is strongly suggested via comments.

 

Koll would have definitely sat Dake a year via deferment if he didn't think Dake couldn't compete at the top of his weight class.

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that's ridiculous, it wasn't Dakes' "guts" that made him wrestle as a true freshman, he had no choice but to compete in his true freshman year.

 

You can say it pretty confidently that Cael wouldn't have won but you really have no idea, NO ONE knows what would have happened had Cael gone to Cornell instead of Iowa State. Or for that matter had Dake gone to Iowa State instead of Cornell. Then he would have had that chance to take a less stress redshirt year before starting his 4 years of eligibility.

Guess I didn't realized that Dake was forced into going to a school where he knew he couldn't redshirt at and had no choice in the matter,

Considering he lost to his own teammate that year, I have an Idea.

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Not really since Dake had loses that year and the year after which actually counted on his record and yet he was still able to perform well enough both times to win NCAA's.

 

No reason Cael could not have done the same.

Dake never lost to his own teammate. which happened after Cael's season. "Maybe he could have pulled off what Dake did" doesn't cut it for me, especially when all signs point to the fact that he probably wouldn't.

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Something that needs to be considered about Cael is that he may have been the best wrestler in the world at his weight class by the time he graduated. This was before Sajidov came onto the scene as the Russian #1.

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