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3acoachinwyo

Dake Vs. Sanderson Vs. Smith

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Cael never lost in the finals of a post season tournament as Dake did either. That would point to him not being able to win NCAA's, but Dake did it anyway.

 

Not sure what a team mate has to do with anything. He lost ONE match he knew wouldn't count on his record to someone he subsequently beat handily every time after. That coupled with his 159 - 0 NCAA record during the next four years points rather strongly to the fact that Cael wins when it matters. Put him in the NCAA tournament that first year and you would really bet against him knowing how easily he made it look the rest of his career?

 

His unprecedented THREE hodge trophies is a pretty strong sign to me as well.

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You guys are overlooking the most important indicator of greatness. Gable had it and passed it on to Cael, who has it now. Dake and Smith don't have it.

 

Asics shoes. Asics Gables were the gold standard for decades until Asics stopped making the Gables and replaced them with the Caels. There are no Dakes or Smiths. Even Burroughs doesn't have a shoe.

 

Gable is the best of all time, followed by Cael, and then it's everybody else.

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Something that needs to be considered about Cael is that he may have been the best wrestler in the world at his weight class by the time he graduated. This was before Sajidov came onto the scene as the Russian #1.

Well... He was what, 17-6 in freestyle while he was in college? And Yoel Romero beat him twice, Vadym Tokaev, Khadsimurad Gatsalov, and Sajid Sajidov beat him the year after he graduated... I'm thinking he wasn't the best wrestler in the world while he was in college.

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Dake book is far from done being written. We pick and choose things to justify our arguments if we are talking greatest all time. It has to go to Cael....Dake has done nothing internationally. If we are talking just college IMO that goes to Cael as well he didn't just go undefeated he did it in dominating fashion where as Dake seemed to just win but I could see someone at least trying to argue for Dake. I would not be surprised at all to see Taylor level the playing field in the next 2-5 years and start taking matches from Dake.

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Dake is an all time great, no doubt about it, but I'm not sure how you can look at the numbers and come to any conclusion other then Sanderson > Dake.

 

Better winning percentage, even if you eliminate Dake's true freshman year losses or want to factor in Sanderson's redshirt loss.

 

More conference titles.

 

More OW awards.

 

More Hodges.

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Since there is all this speculating about whether Cael could have won 4 without a redshirt (and gone undefeated), does anyone think that if Dake had taken a redshirt, he could have won 4, at 4 different weights, and gone undefeated? I speculate that Dake likely would've won 4, at 4 different weights, but doubt he would've been undefeated.

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Since there is all this speculating about whether Cael could have won 4 without a redshirt (and gone undefeated), does anyone think that if Dake had taken a redshirt, he could have won 4, at 4 different weights, and gone undefeated? I speculate that Dake likely would've won 4, at 4 different weights, but doubt he would've been undefeated.

 

Dake lost to Donnie Vinson in his soph. year.

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Something that needs to be considered about Cael is that he may have been the best wrestler in the world at his weight class by the time he graduated. This was before Sajidov came onto the scene as the Russian #1.

Well... He was what, 17-6 in freestyle while he was in college? And Yoel Romero beat him twice, Vadym Tokaev, Khadsimurad Gatsalov, and Sajid Sajidov beat him the year after he graduated... I'm thinking he wasn't the best wrestler in the world while he was in college.

 

I'm talking about his senior year in college. At the time of his juior/senior year, Gatsalov and Sajidov weren't the Russian reps at their weight class. Cael defeated the world silver medalist while in college, and defeated the gold medalist at least shortly after he graduated, but it may have been before his senior season. I'm not sure about that. Actually, it was after his senior season. Having said that, there's good evidence that Cael was at least top 3 in the world at one point in college.

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PA-Fan-You're taking issue with my verbiage? You feel torched is a touch strong? Kind of pointless to argue semantics don't you think? Honestly, I only used the word torched to get a rise out of....well I guess you. I actually like Taylor on the mat, his skills are really not up for debate. I just like to give you PSU boys a good ribbing every now and then.

If I made a list I suppose I would still have Cael #1 but, like I said, I think what Dake did may be more amazing and less likely than Cael going undefeated with one loss that doesn't count. Cael, Dake, and Pat is fun argument that I'm not sure there is really a wrong answer to.

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What we keep forgetting is that Cael knew that match wouldn't count on his official record so he lost on purpose.

 

Huh?

 

Who said anything about losing "on purpose"? His record was 159 wins and ZERO loses with four NCAA titles, four Big 12 titles, four OW awards at NCAA's, and three Hodge trophies (noone else has more than 2 and only Askren as more than 1).

 

And I keep hearing about this teammate of his Paul Jenn who beat him but the only mention on Cael's record about a man named Paul Jenn is someone from Iowa not Iowa st who he tech falled TWICE and majored once:

 

Cael Sanderson's perfect record

 

Freshman year — 184 pounds

 

Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-TF 19-4

 

Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-MD 10-2

 

Sophomore year — 184 pounds

 

Paul Jenn (Iowa) W-Disq., 22-7

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Dake had the balls and the ability to win it in 4 years not 5 .

 

We don't know if Cael could have won in his first 4 years but we do know for a fact that Dake could.

 

 

Dake definitely has huge balls and ability but that is not seen in his choice not to take a redshirt year, since he couldn't take a redshirt at Cornell no matter if he wanted to or not.

 

 

Now Dake CHOOSING to bump up his senior year to put his 4 NCAA titles on the line against the returning Hodge trophy winner does show unheard of fearlessness, confidence, and mental stability. That was something else to watch for sure.

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Dake had the balls and the ability to win it in 4 years not 5 .

 

We don't know if Cael could have won in his first 4 years but we do know for a fact that Dake could.

 

 

Dake definitely has huge balls and ability but that is not seen in his choice not to take a redshirt year, since he couldn't take a redshirt at Cornell no matter if he wanted to or not.

 

 

Now Dake CHOOSING to bump up his senior year to put his 4 NCAA titles on the line against the returning Hodge trophy winner does show unheard of fearlessness, confidence, and mental stability. That was something else to watch for sure.

He could've taken a grey shirt.

 

As for his choice to bump up, I think one thing Sanderson fans forget to mention is that Taylor is just as dominating a force as Cael ever was in college. Cael and Taylor are the two people in recent history who could pretty much pin or tech fall everyone they wrestled. If Dake hadn't bumped up, Taylor would likely graduate with 3 hodges, 4 B1G titles, and 3 Gorrian awards. Now he'll have to settle for 2 of the 3. Dake will never have the chance to beat Cael, but he had the chance to beat Taylor and he did just that: thrice.

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Dake definitely has huge balls and ability but that is not seen in his choice not to take a redshirt year, since he couldn't take a redshirt at Cornell no matter if he wanted to or not.

 

 

Now Dake CHOOSING to bump up his senior year to put his 4 NCAA titles on the line against the returning Hodge trophy winner does show unheard of fearlessness, confidence, and mental stability. That was something else to watch for sure.

 

Nope, not unheard of. Mark Schultz comes to mind.

Cael also moved up to 197 his final year and shut down all those who kept accusing him of staying down to avoid 'the big boys'.

 

159-0 beats anything with a loss. Add in that Cael never missed a match and won even if he had an off day.

I would put Dake and Pat Smith behind the Three Time Undefeated champs as well.

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As dominating as Taylor is, he just isn't Cael. He lost when it counted his freshman year for the NCAA title like most mere mortals do. We can't say that doesn't matter just to make it look more mpressive for Dake to have beaten him for his fourth title.

 

Yes we do not know what would have happened had Dake gotten the chance to bump up and wrestle Cael but how him having beaten David Taylor three times by 1 point each means he would should get the edge over the only wrestler to go undefeated while winning 4 titles while winning 3 Hodges, and being the Outstanding Wrestler at every NCAA tourny he entered doesn't make sense to me.

 

We can only go by what actually happened and Cael actually did all that with each match adding more and more pressure to him to fail.

 

Just my opinion that Cael has to get the nod not just by his undefeated record but also how he demolished everyone while not losing all 4 years. What Dake did is unreal to me too though, knowing how hard wrestling is and trying to think about the level you must be at to do what he did, wow.

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Cael deserved the four Outstanding wrestling awards with the Fourth based more on the unbeaten streak and Fourth Title. There were at least two other wrestlers at the NCAA tournament Cael's final season who deserved the OW award. But, you can't beat perfection and 159-0 was not to be ignored.

Cael deserved it but if this had been his second or third NCAA tournament he would not have been OW four in a row.

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I just want to go on record saying this.....and I think I'm being pretty fair about it...though possibly controversial:

 

The middleweights have a much larger pool of people to wade through just to suit up generally speaking, and quite frankly, more people with more skills. You don't see too many large guys hitting calf/ankle picks ( cept Cael, of course), foot sweeps ( Ron Jeidy exception), Fireman's Carries( help me here), metzgers ( Pete Bush), Leg Lace Throws ( Ed Banach), boot scoots, duck unders, spaghetti wrestling, J Smith ankle behind the head stuff, and so forth.

 

You see alot more diverse manuevers mastered per lightweight and middleweight than you do with the big fellas. And that is a telling criterion as well when assessing "greatness". Unless, just being the winner everytime makes you the "best", I'd say beauty and judgement is reserved for the beholder.

 

Therefore, I deem Dakes and Pat Smith's accomplishments at least on par with Sandersons ( as well as Gable's and Kemp's).

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There is substance to what you say Badger but we aren't talking about heavyweight here. 184 - 197 wrestle just like the other weights for the most part except for some of the very low to the ground J. Smith style or maybe someother random "spagetti" stuff.

 

But you don't think the relatively small changes in skills of the 157s vs. 184s are outweighed by being far more strong/thick? It's not easy to move around a guy that big thats trying to take your head off.

 

And lets not forget Cael would also put his unbeaten streak on the line by weighing in at 184 and wrestling at 197 -- a 13 lb difference and still win handily. None of the middle or light weights would be able to handle such a jump against good competition for long. Heck, it was very impressive for Dake to move up to the stronger 165ers his last year and still win despite becoming a 165'er himself.

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I just want to go on record saying this.....and I think I'm being pretty fair about it...though possibly controversial:

 

The middleweights have a much larger pool of people to wade through just to suit up generally speaking, and quite frankly, more people with more skills. You don't see too many large guys hitting calf/ankle picks ( cept Cael, of course), foot sweeps ( Ron Jeidy exception), Fireman's Carries( help me here), metzgers ( Pete Bush), Leg Lace Throws ( Ed Banach), boot scoots, duck unders, spaghetti wrestling, J Smith ankle behind the head stuff, and so forth.

 

You see alot more diverse manuevers mastered per lightweight and middleweight than you do with the big fellas. And that is a telling criterion as well when assessing "greatness". Unless, just being the winner everytime makes you the "best", I'd say beauty and judgement is reserved for the beholder.

 

Therefore, I deem Dakes and Pat Smith's accomplishments at least on par with Sandersons ( as well as Gable's and Kemp's).

 

Cael set himself apart from the vast majority of light and middleweights when he proved himself to be one of the very best in the world while in college. 185 had a lot of the pound for pound top guys when Cael was there as well, although it definitely got even tougher in the 185-211 weight when he retired.

 

Having said that, I agree those guys are on par with Cael (well, Gable if he had won his senior year, so he's a notch below) as well as the lightweight Uetake, who's always forgotten when he was just two years before Gable. Gray Simons is also another largely forgotten great.

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